Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 02 Nov 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch here: Plenary
The House met at 14:01.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
The SPEAKER: Order, order, hon members. The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the President. There are four supplementary questions on each question.
Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual.
The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating
opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, amongst others, has been applied. If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so, due to technological difficulties, the party whips on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the President, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.
Hon members, I have been informed that the President will be answering questions through the virtual platform. The first question has been asked by the hon G P Masualle, the hon President.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY – The PRESIDENT
Question 19:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon members, the mandate of the South African Reserve Bank is set out in section 224 of our Constitution, which states that :
The primary objective of the South African Reserve Bank is to protect the value of the currency of South Africa in the
interest of balanced and sustainable economic growth in the Republic.
South Africa faces a structural growth and an unemployment problem, which cannot simply be addressed by a mere accommodative monetary policy stance. We need to focus on the structural factors, constraining our economy. That is why, as part of our efforts to accelerate growth and employment creation, we are committed to macroeconomic stability, the rapid implementation of the reforms that we have undertaken and a capable state that provides the necessary public goods and services to its citizens.
Price stability supports economic growth, as low and stable inflation creates certainty about future prices, which helps to facilitate investment and also to ensure that indeed our growth trajectory is a stable one. Low and stable inflation makes South Africa’s exports competitive relative to trade partners, that we trade with.
By contrast, higher inflation harms economic growth and stifles employment creation. Higher inflation also erodes the purchasing power and living standards of everyone, especially the poor in our country.As inflation rises, the cost of living
goes up. Most items cost more and people are not able to afford many of the items they usually buy.
While the Reserve Bank should, without sacrificing price stability, take into account broader objectives such as employment creation and economic growth.
There is therefore currently no intention to review the mandate of the South African Reserve Bank.
In terms of our Constitution:
The South African Reserve Bank, in pursuit of its primary object, must perform its functions independently and without fear, favour or prejudice, but there must be regular consultation between the Bank and the Cabinet Minister, ‘in this case the Finance Minister’, responsible for national financial matters.
In terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, the Bank must and does publish a monthly statement of its assets and liabilities and an annual report and present those to Parliament.
The Bank is therefore accountable to Parliament. The Governor of the Bank holds regular discussions with the Minister of Finance and from time to time appears before the Parliamentary Portfolio and Select Committees on Finance. So, the accountability of the bank is in place. I thank you, Speaker.
Mr G P MASUALLE: Thank you, hon President for a comprehensive response. However, Mr President may I bring to your attention that, and I am sure you are aware of this. The Minister of Finance yesterday, in his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, made a very sobering submissions about our gross domestic product, GDP growth, which he said has been adjusted downwards to point 8% this year, projected to average around 1,4% over the medium term.
In his words, if I may quote, he says:
These growth rates are not sufficient to achieve our desired level Bills of development.
Mr President, I am sure you would agree that in search for solutions to these difficult challenges of the day, like the unacceptably high levels of unemployment and poverty,
certainly nothing could be considered as sacrosanct or cast in stone.
Mr President it would appear that all these policy instruments have to be used interactively and, in this instance, also, monetary policy has a role to play. Is it not time, hon President that we look more into this question of a more accommodative monetary policy stance that goes beyond just price stability, as you have indicated, to take care of ... [Interjection.]. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker indeed, I am fully aware of the Medium-Term Policy Budget Statement that was made by the Minister yesterday in the National Assembly. And also, his comments and statements regarding our growth prospects.
And, as I said earlier, section 224 of our Constitution sets out the clear objects of the central bank, and if one looks at that section carefully, you will find that whilst it addresses the issue of the value of our currency, it has to be looked at in broader context. The context of the bank also using the various policy instruments that it has, to foster economic growth.
So, therefore we need to use, as I think you correctly said, all the instruments at our disposal. The macroeconomic policies of our country need to be used at our disposal, both fiscal and monetary, to foster growth.
Now, the focus on the value of our currency is not a matter that needs to be looked only in isolation, it needs to be looked at as part of the whole instruments. All the instruments that we have to promote growth, to foster job creation and to have a macroeconomic environment that is stable, that encourages investment as well. And if we use this type of approach, which is multidisciplinary, we should be to continue ensuring that growth does indeed get encouraged, get properly entrenched in our economy.
We have faced difficult challenges, particularly after the 2008 financial global crisis. The growth levels in our economy have not lived up to all our expectations and we continue much as we are growing, will continue to grow at anaemic levels.
There are certain things we have to do, which are also focused on in my main reply, the various reforms that we have to embark upon and complete so that we can create a conducive climate for investment to take place in our country.
Now, all the efforts that are being made, are aimed towards ensuring that we do get to a level where our economic growth is around 5% and more, because then we will be able to create more jobs on an ongoing basis. Thank you, Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President I’m sure you’re aware that if the South African Reserve Bank loses its independence as suggested by my right, hon friend, and starts to print money to prop up your failing government, it would drive hyperinflation through the roof. The values, people’s incomes and cause the type of collapse that we’ve seen in Zimbabwe and Venezuela, plunging more of our people into dire poverty.
It should be a matter of grave concern for you, however, Mr President that the reserve bank has already been compromised and its independence already strained. And what was clearly an unfair exoneration of yourself in the Phalaphala matter. As your exoneration on the Phalaphala matter not now opened up a loophole for money launderers who can now stuff billions of dollars and pounds into couches as long as they never complete their transactions.
And doesn’t this undermine the efforts of your government to get us of the grey list? Thank you. I thank you, Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the independence of the reserve bank is set out in our Constitution. And the reserve bank has always acted independently without favour, without prejudice. And it is one of those central banks that are highly respected in the world. And we need to continue to uphold the independence of the central bank. Thank you, Speaker.
Mr N SINGH: Speaker, hon Buthelezi is having some challenges with connectivity. I will take a question on his behalf. Mr President in the year 2000, South Africa became the 13th country to adopt an inflation targeting monetary policy framework. Targeting an inflation band of between three and six percent for consumer inflation.
Given that to a large extent, hon President the inflation figures in our country are as a result of exogenous factors. The price of brent crude oil, the wars outside of our country and so on and so forth.
Do you think that the policy of using inflation targeting to set monetary policy is a wise one moving forward? Thank you. Thank you, Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, yes, you are absolutely correct that we have opted for a policy approach that sets parameters or targets inflation rate between three and six percent. It should be known that we are not the only country in the world, that has an inflation targeting policy approach. This has served us well in the past, and I believe that it continues to serve us well.
And the central bank focuses on ensuring that our inflation rate is within that target range. And when the governor and the Minister get together to discuss the various matters, this is one of the issues that they also focus their attention on.
So, I have seen no reason to believe that there is any need for deviation, because the reserve bank continues to ensure that our inflation by utilising various instruments, including our interest rates regime, which is an instrument which the central bank uses from time to time.
And right now, many people are feeling the pinch, but I am confident that as inflation rates come down in the rest of the world and our currency gets stronger, we should be able to see lower interest rates coming down, therefore proving the efficacy of continuing to use this inflation rate targeting.
So, until otherwise demonstrated. I think this continues to be a good policy approach. Thank you, Speaker.
Mr W M THRING: Mr President the primary function of the South African Reserve Bank in terms of section 224 of the Constitution is to protect the value of the rand in the interest of a balanced and sustainable economic growth in the Republic where the instrument to use to control the economy is inflation targeting through its monetary policy.
Now, there are those who would argue that inflation targeting has become a blunt tool which largely impacts the poor and the middle class, particularly when the repo rate is increased.
Within the South African context, low inflation correlates to low economic growth.
Now, Mr President with countries such as Egypt, Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria, and Zambia having higher inflation targets with higher growth rates. Would you agree, Mr President that the
reserve bank should also have economic growth, employment and investment targets together with the inflation target? If yes,
... [Interjection.] [Inaudible.] ... why not? Thank you. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the approach that the central bank has used, which is also supported widely in our country, is that of curbing inflation. Because a higher rate of inflation in the end has a negative impact on the poor because the value of their currency, the value of the money they have also goes down and therefore impoverishes them even more.
And that is why the drafters of our Constitution felt that we need to focus attention on the value of our currency and indeed many other central banks around the world also focus on the value of their currency because the value of the currency is an important instrument in the hands of ordinary people, particularly the poor.
The higher the inflation rate, the lesser they are able to purchase in the form of goods and services with their currency.
So, in the end economic policy, is the whole process is an act of balancing. You’ve got to balance a number of things and in this regard, we have focused on the value of the currency so that, that value of the currency is able to promote yes, economic growth.
When inflation is at the level where it is now and interest rates are high indeed, the balance goes out of kilter because it prevents investors from investing in our economy and we hope and trust that this is a momentary process, and this will pass, and we will see higher levels of growth and the lower inflation and therefore lower interest rates as we proceed forward. Thank you, Speaker.
Question 20:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Since taking office, I have established two commissions of inquiry in terms of section 84 (2)(f) of our Constitution. The first of these was the Commission of Inquiry into Tax Administration and Governance by the South African Revenue Service, which was established on the 23 May 2018. The second was the Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of Impropriety regarding the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, which was established on 17 October 2018.
In respect of the second part of the question, in 2013 former President Jacob Zuma appointed a Commission of Inquiry into the Remuneration and Conditions of Service in the Public Services and Public Entities. The Commission was called the Presidential Remuneration Review Commission and was headed by retired Chief Justice Ngcobo and retired Deputy President of the Supreme Court of Appeal, Justice Mthiyane.
The commission completed its work, and its report was approved by Cabinet in February 2021. The report and its recommendations were referred to the Department of Public Service and Administration to inform its work with respect to matters of remuneration standards. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker and thank you very much hon President. Thank you for the answer. From what I have researched, I note that there were four commissions that were appointed during your time, the Zondo Commission, the Nugent Commission, the Mpati Commission and the Mokgoro Inquiry, dealing with different matters. But it is to the second part of the question that I would like to ask you a question, hon President, and your advice. It is to the commission that was set by former President Zuma with regard to the remuneration and public service. To this end, I want to ask specifically
about the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers that was appointed under your watch, hon President.
Now from what I know - in my experience here in Parliament - this commission is really dragging its feet in coming up with tangible proposals to Parliament on the remuneration of office bearers. Next year in the seventh Parliament we are going to have a new cohort of Members of Parliament coming into Parliament, and surely, they would like to know what the terms and conditions of the service would be. What salaries they would get. What tools of trade they would get, etc.
Now, this commission that we have currently, hon President, reminds me of the Springboks. They go into a scrum and then the pact collapses. They go into another scrum and the pact collapses. From my research, they have been reviewing and reviewing all the way back for about 10 years - the issue of remuneration of public office bearers.
I want to know, hon President, if you would put pressure on this commission to come up with tangible solutions so that Members of Parliament and other public office bearers will know exactly what they are in for in the seventh Parliament?
To this end, Mr President, let me emphasise that we are not saying give us an increase. We understand the financial position that the country is in. But we would really like to know what our terms and conditions and packages would be. So, this commission needs to be given the red card. First a yellow card by you, Mr President, and then the red card - sin bin - and then the red card. My question, Mr President, is how will you deal with this matter and the lethargy by the commission? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, to my recollection and indeed the reality is that the State Capture Commission was not appointed by myself. It was appointed by my predecessor and to my recollection as well, the other commissions you referred to was also appointed in that way.
So, what I did indicate is that those two commissions which were appointed in 2018 were the ones that I appointed. But be that as it may, the issue of this commission - the Independent Commission for Remuneration of Public Office Bearers - I hear the frustration that you are articulating. It is well understood, and their work is overdue. I am informed that the process of preparing the report is underway and that the submission of the recommendation to the President and its
publication will happen before the end of the year, or the financial year, I should add.
So, the commission has indicated that it is finalising their report for all public office bearers. You would like me to put pressure on them. As you well know, these types of commissions are independent, and we need to retain that level of independence and non-interference because that is the type of rule of law, environment and ecosystem that we have.
However, I have been informed that the report should be forthcoming shortly. I agree with you that as we go into the seventh administration, as new Members of Parliament are going to be inaugurated or appointed, it is important that public office bearers should know what terms and conditions are going to govern their tenure as public representatives. So, this work is underway, and I am sure that we should be able to receive the report shortly. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Ms S G N MBATHA: Hon Speaker, the President, I have one question for you. What were the lessons learnt from establishing these two commissions and how was it applied? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we have learnt many lessons from the establishment of the two commissions that I referred to and I appointed. They have tabled their reports and those reports are being analysed and have been analysed, and various proposals and recommendations that were made by those two commissions are being turned either into regulations, into legislation and those will, as we move on, be put forward to Parliament for legislation because they have come up with really important recommendations as they have looked at the misdemeanours and lack of adherence to governance processes in the work that they performed. The Nugent Commission did precisely that into Sars, as well as the Mpathi Commission in relation to the Public Investment Corporation.
So, we are making considerable progress with regard to the implementation of the recommendations that they put forward. So, valuable and important lessons have been learnt and we hope, and trust, and believe that Sars and indeed the PIC will be much better organisations once all their recommendations have been implemented. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, ahead of next year’s election, I will be happy to take you through the
package of the Leader of the Opposition. Mr President, what is the point of these commissions if we don’t implement the findings of them? And I quote from you recently where you said that:
Those who were involved in corruption or even thinking about engaging criminal conduct must know that all the instruments of the state will be used to bring them to book. There will be no place for corrupt people, for criminal networks and for the perpetrators of state capture to hide.
The Zondo report found against Dipuo Peters, Zizi Kodwa Khumbudzo Ntshavheni, Gwede Mantashe and Thabang Makwetla for their part in state capture. Yet, these people still sit around your Cabinet table. How can you honestly say there’s nowhere for these people to hide when they are hiding in plain sight around your Cabinet table? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I have said on a number of occasions that the recommendations that were put forward by the State Capture Commission are being processed, and I did address Parliament to give the response of the government to those recommendations. A considerable amount of
progress is being made in implementing the various recommendations that were put forward. At the same time, I did say that our law enforcement agencies in their various iterations, particularly the prosecutorial agencies, are in the process of processing whatever actions that can and will be taken against anyone who is implicated in wrongdoing.
Now, we have worked on a simple and straightforward principle that we would like the recommendations to be implemented and implementation should also - as I said even in my recent statement - result in those that have done any wrong or being involved in wrongdoing to be followed up through prosecution and once charges are preferred against anyone, we are then able to follow through.
Now, I have said on a number of occasions that many charges have been preferred against a number of people who have been involved in the whole process of state capture. Many cases are appearing before our courts and there has also been a process of following up on their assets through the Assets Forfeiture structure that we’ve got. So, all that is going ahead, and of course, in the end we pay little attention to the progress that is being made with regard to the reclaiming of ill-gotten monies that are now coming back to the state, as well as those
people who are now in courts have been charged and processes are underway.
Progress is being made, and of course, progress in relation to all these matters does yet tend to take its time as it does in many other environments. But progress is being made because we will ensure that justice is in fact implemented and we will ensure that criminality is followed up. So be rest assured that as we proceed, processes of following up on those who have committed any form of wrongdoing will continue. That is the assurance that I can give, and that is the determination of our law enforcement agencies who act independently without any fear or favour or prejudice. That for me is an important principle. I have often said that when we give them the freedom, the resources to act, I have often found that they do act indeed on an independent, non-prejudice, no fear type of basis. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon President. I have been informed that the request for the last supplementary question was not received. We then proceed to the next question, and that is Question 21. It has been asked by the hon P J Groenewald.
Question 21:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, my apologies, may I proceed?
The SPEAKER: Yes, you may proceed, hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, my respect to you. Violence against women and children is a deeply-entrenched problem in our country and this continues, despite clear political commitment and several measures taken to combat it. Our country has high levels of socioeconomic inequality, which can lead to increased levels of violence, including gender- based violence. Cultural norms, patriarchal values and toxic masculinity continue to be perpetrated and they perpetuate gender inequality and contribute to violence against women.
Through the National Strategic Plan on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide, which was really crafted by the women of our country and presented at the first gender-based summit I convened, we have embarked on several strategies to end violence against women. Critical among these is the work underway to improve the response of the criminal justice system to gender-based violence, with a focus on more effective law enforcement, better training for our police
officers and streamlined legal processes that we have put in place and continues to put in place.
The laws that we have enacted have led to increased sentences for offenders. They have also led to tighter bail and parole conditions and provided greater protection for women at risk of domestic violence. Through specialised units, like the NPA Sexual Offences and Community Affairs Unit, the state is securing more convictions and longer sentences for perpetrators of violence against women and children.
The conviction rate for matters emanating from our Thuthuzela Care Centres, for example, currently stands at 76,5%, up from 60% in 2010. Various campaigns and initiatives seek to raise awareness about gender-based violence and promote gender equality. These efforts aim to challenge traditional norms and educate the public about the consequences of such violence.
Ending gender-based violence requires a sustained multipronged approach that should involve all key role-players in our country and that should address the underlying structural issues in our society and changes in cultural norms and attitudes.
It is a long-term challenge that requires the commitment of not just the political leaders, but society as a whole. In this regard, we should commend the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces for passing the National Council on Gender-Based Violence and Femicide Bill earlier. This is a vital piece of legislation that will strengthen our national response to this scourge.
Now, the South African police is implementing the Gender-Based Violence and Sexual Offences Action Plan and we commend them for this. A key focus of the action plan is active partnerships and civil society organisations, including faith- based organisations and traditional authorities, which help to strengthen positive norms and values in communities.
Now, the South African Police Service has also undertaken the Children’s Programme, which aims to identify and ensure the sustainable protection of children at risk of crime. The programme supports the establishment of child committees at police stations in areas where there is a high prevalence of crime against children or crimes that are committed by children as well. These committees identify children that are at risk of crime, indicate the factors that place them at risk
and ensure the appropriate officials address the factors placing them at risk.
Now, the police also conduct awareness raising programmes, addressing any emerging trends and tendencies that make children particularly vulnerable to become victims of crime and the police have a partnership with the Department of Basic Education for the implementation of the School Safety Programme. This includes conducting searches at schools for drugs or weapons that could be used to harm members of the school community.
Now, the school liaison officer can also address children on the risks and emerging trends that make children vulnerable to crime and provide information on how to build resilience against becoming child crime offenders or victims. Now, all these initiatives are aimed at addressing this problem of gender-based violence against the women of our country and the children. I thank you.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Speaker, through you to the hon President, the FF Plus agrees and supports all these measures that you have referred to and it is the necessary steps, but surely, there must be a way to measure the success of all
these steps, and the strengthening of legislation. My follow- up question to you is: How do you, as the President, measure the success of all these steps? And the reason I’m asking is, surely, a very strong indication is the murder rate. And over the last five years, the murder rate of women increased with 23,5%. In the previous financial year, 3 422 women were killed and 1 056 children, an increase of 7,2% over five years. These are the statistics of the police. I have asked a question to the hon Minister about the murder rate over the last 10 years of murders in South Africa based on gender, race and age. Now, I am worried because this is the answer I received: “Yes, I got the whole number. It says that the reclassification of the statistics above, in terms of additional attributes such as the victims’ age group, race and gender requires a thorough docket analysis, as the information is not always accurately captured and not compulsory. Hon President with great respect, that means the figures are not right. Therefore, my follow-up question is: What measures do you take to ensure success?
Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I would like to thank hon Groenewald for, in the main, appreciating the various initiatives that I alluded to earlier, because those initiatives are aimed precisely at addressing the issue that
he raised in his question about how we measure success. And I guess, hon Groenewald, success indeed is an objective that we need to focus on. We need to be able to measure precisely whether we are moving forward or not.
Now, I spent quite a lot of time, not only with the Minister, but also with the Commissioner of Police, discussing precisely these matters, particularly from an implementation point of view. Now, with the other measures that we have introduced, like increasing the number of police, the number of police who should be on the beat, who should be on the ground, I am hopeful that we are going to start seeing a great deal of progress, which will also contribute to the success that we will have.
Now, yes, because we have such a big country of 62 million people and with a police force that has been going down, compared to the population and the ratio, as you have often said, it is not well balanced. It is also a challenge to get all the proper statistics. We are working to improve even the measuring, because I believe it is important to have proper records, proper statistics, to be able to see the progress that we are making.
We are one of those countries that seeks to have proper records on a number of areas that affect our lives, as South Africans. And it is also in the incidence of criminality that I would also like to see more precise numbers and measures coming forward, so that we can be able to accurately see that we are making progress.
However, be rest assured, this problem of criminality, particularly the crimes that are committed against women and children is a matter that is top of mind, that continues to exercise myself and indeed, the Minister and the Commissioner of Police and his colleagues. We will make sure that we get on top of it and we have been throwing resources or making resources available and we are going to be making more resources available, as you would have heard from the Minister of Finance, to make sure that we strengthen policing in our country and rid our country of criminality, but more especially, criminality against women and children. Thank you.
Ms N P PEACOCK: Hon Speaker, hon President the increase in the reported contact crimes against women and children is indeed a cause for grave concern. Do you believe that this might point towards increasing levels of trust in the ability of the South
African Police Service to assist victims of gender-based violence and femicide? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, increasing the trust levels between the police and members of our community is something that we are focusing our attention on. It is the issue of criminality, particularly crimes that are committed against women and children where the real test is. And it is in this area where we are doing quite a lot of work, particularly in regard to the initiatives that I spoke to.
The training of police has increased enormously, to ensure that, when our police handle cases of crimes committed against women and children, they do so sensitively, they do so in a way that will increase the level of trust between the victims of crime, as well as the communities at large. Now, this training, the various other initiatives and putting in place more and more Thuthuzela Care Centres is really contributing towards ensuring that that level of trust is increased.
The other initiative that we have embarked upon, which have shown great progress and greater promise is the DNA testing facility. I went to the biggest DNA testing facility we have in the Eastern Cape, in Gqeberha, and saw how we have revamped
and how we have been able to decrease the backlog of thousands and thousands of samples. I went there with a number of women- led organisations and they testified to the fact that they can see progress. Now, that in itself increases the level of confidence that the women of our country should have on an increasing basis in the approach and the manner in which the police handle gender-based violence cases against women and children.
So, we will continue to work to ensure that that trust and that confidence do increase. I know we are starting from a low base, but the initiatives that we have embarked upon now is precisely what the women of our country asked for and we have joined them and we are supporting them with the implementation of these various initiatives.
For instance, from a legislative point of view, I am hoping and trusting that the women of our country and those key role- players will see that we are seeking to make progress.
However, I should also say much more still needs to be done and it is precisely this that we will focus more attention on. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, allow me to recognise our guests from the Rif Republic in the audience. Mr President, I like what you’re saying - multipronged approach. It is absolutely correct. I notice all the emphasis appears to be on the Minister of Police and the Department of Police and SAPS, as a whole. They are not creating a problem. When can we implement this multipronged approach to ensure that all relevant departments come together? Now, let me give you an example very quickly. Mr President, 91 000 children were born from children in this country last year. Taverns are open 24 hours and the Minister of Police and the entire sector have been raising this again and again and nothing is happening.
Okay, 78% of fathers in some of the communities are not in the lives of their children; they are never seen or heard. No maintenance is being paid. The socioeconomic conditions under which they live is giving rise to the high levels of gender- based violence. So, I think we need a holistic approach. Mr President, I like what you’re saying. Can we have an indaba on or whatever we call it, so that we come together and address the root causes of gender-based violence? Thank you very much.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, yes, hon Shaik Emam, tackling violence against women and children, as I said,
requires a multipronged approach, but also all of society. This cannot be solved by the police alone, and the police often come as an aftereffect, when the crime has already been committed, when a woman has been raped or killed. Usually, it happens when people who are related to each other, who know each other are involved. It requires all of society.
It requires men in our country to ensure that they take up the responsibility they should. And you are touching on a very important point - the absence of men in the lives of their children. As you correctly say, some 70% or more of the children grow up with their fathers not present in their lives. And this is just a recipe for a number of social problems that will definitely arise and we therefore need to focus also on how all of society gets involved in this process and not just points fingers at the police.
We need to go to the root cause of these problems and challenges. What we have found is also working is focusing on the role of men in the whole process of gender-based violence. And I have heard of a university in our country where there has been widespread abuse of young women in the university, where they started calling men’s dialogues. They said, as the men started discussing what terrible crimes are being
committed against women, they found that conversations and dialogues led to a lesser and lesser incidents of gender-based violence. When men do this, we can make progress.
The Minister of Basic Education or the Department of Basic Education is propagating this type of approach and getting young boys at schools to have conversations about gender-based violence. I attended one in Soweto and was pleasantly pleased, I should say, when young boys stood up and spoke against gender-based violence.
Later this month, I will be convening a men’s dialogue across our continent, where a number of heads of state will also participate. It will be the third such dialogue that will be held on our continent, with great participation at head of state level. We will be dealing with the issues of masculinity and making sure that we spread the word and the message about the role that men have to play in ridding our country and indeed, our continent of gender-based violence, because gender-based violence is also rife in a number of countries on our continent. Therefore, I will be convening such a dialogue, which will be attended by quite a number of people from across the continent.
It is when we do this ... And I would like to encourage all of us as leaders to focus on ensuring that we spread the word, because this is all of society’s responsibility. When we do embark on initiatives like this, it is already becoming proven that, when we have such conversations and such dialogue, we are able to see gender-based violence tapering down. Of course, we’ve got to do it in a much bigger way to be able to see meaningful change, but it is a task that we should all take upon our shoulders. Thank you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, despite the jargon, platitudes and the acronyms, the reality is, as the statistics show, we are losing this battle. Violence against women and children is going up. It is not coming down.
Siphokazi Boy was brutally murdered two years ago. She was beaten to death, she was dismembered, she was burnt and her body was dumped in a wheelie bin. There has been no justice for Siphokazi and no justice for thousands of women and children like her, who were similarly brutalised on your watch.
And part of the reason for this is the massive drop in the number of detectives. We have lost 8 000 detectives since you became President. Now, detective services are a critical
component in ensuring quality investigations and prosecutions. Like you, I was also in Gqeberha, when I visited the Chatty Police Station that has got a critical shortage of detectives. How can you justify budget cuts to detectives when you are increasing the budget for VIP protection services for yourself and your Cabinet? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I would like to regard what hon Leader of the Opposition said, as a suggestion where he is suggesting that we have to increase the number of detectives and as we increase the number of police officers, and increasing them by the thousands, I would like to insert a positive message, which he did not articulate. I would have liked to hear him say, Mr President, to make sure that some of those police officers that we are training and bringing into the police service, are trained as good detectives, because that’s precisely what we are focusing attention on.
So, I would like to hear some really good suggestions from him. So, I’m reading that as a good suggestion. I think it is best to leave it there, rather than to listen to his diatribe and his moaning, because we are dealing here with a very serious matter that requires all of society’s involvement, that requires that we come forward with positive suggestions.
The level of investigations has increased tremendously and with a success rate, as I said, with a number of cases that have to deal with crimes committed against women and children. There is forward movement and of course, because of the incidents, it does feel and look like we may not be making progress, but what we should all be saying is that we need to move quicker, with more determination, including making sure that investigations do lead to great success and we have detectives that are going to be able to investigate all these acts of criminality, so that we leave no one behind. Thank you.
Question 22:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the Census 2022 results show substantial shifts in important indicators such as access to education, housing, electricity, water and sanitation facilities. The results have significant implications for policy and planning in our country.
The Census 2022 data will be used in the work that is being coordinated by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation on the 30-year review of progress since the advent of democracy and for the development of the medium-term National Development Plan, NDP, for 2024 to 2029.
The Census shows that South Africa continues to have relatively high levels of population growth and urbanisation. The population increased by 20% from 2011 to 2022, an increase of 10,3 million people.
Gauteng, as South Africa’s most populous and most urbanised province, saw an increase in population to 15,1 million people; more than double that of the Western Cape at
7,4 million.
From a policy and planning perspective, this points to the need to more deliberately and consistently plan for urbanisation, to ensure adequate infrastructure, service delivery and economic opportunities.
While increasing efforts to advance rural development, government will also focus more on leveraging the role of cities as engines and centres of growth and shared prosperity.
The Census further demonstrated that South Africa’s population remains young, with the median age of 28 years, just over 61% of our population is under 35 years old.
Our country, therefore, needs to continue with efforts to improve Early Childhood Development, ECD, education outcomes and post-school education and training. The figures further showed significant improvements in education levels in 2022 compared to 1996. For example, the percentage of people aged
20 years and older who completed secondary education, more than doubled from 16% in 1996 to 38% in 2022.
The number of households almost doubled between 1996 to 2022, pointing to significant pressure on housing as well as services that need to be provided.
Significantly, there was a huge increase in the percentage of households that reside in formal dwellings from 65% in 2011 to 89% in 2022.
There has been a massive increase in access to basic services over the last three decades. For example, there was an increase in access to electricity for lighting from 58% in 1996 to 2022, to 95%.
Now, Census 2022 clearly demonstrates the effectiveness of economic and social policies that have been pursued by successive democratic administrations.
The results of the Census show that as we continue to work for universal access to basic services such as housing, health and education, we need to pursue stable and prudent macroeconomic policies that have a strong developmental perspective that will enable us to even make greater progress on all these counters. For we have set a fairly good foundation, what we now need to do is to make universal more universal, but we also need to improve the quality of the services that are provided to our people, and this is a commitment that we have. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr Q R DYANTYI: Thank you, hon President, for that comprehensive response. Your response demonstrates that we remain a country that is progressing against all odds.
I hope you share my enthusiasm, hon President, that the Census 2022 results represent a commendable achievement by StatsSA against both objective and subjective challenges, which include your COVID-19 environment, the July 2021 unrest affecting two of our most populous provinces, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, devastating floods, not to mention man-made problems in the Western Cape that delayed even this Census.
We know of countries that could not do it, we know of countries that had to stop midstream, but uMzansi [South Africa] did it and here it is.
Can the President share with this House and the nation how the Census 2022 results will be tailor-made for planning and implementation in all our District Development Models, DDMs, provinces, including critical institutions as well as packaging it for popular consumption by ordinary communities? I thank you, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the 2022 Census results are much more than just putting out statistics. They give us a toolkit, a toolbox that we can utilise to ensure that we make progress on a number of areas that affect our people’s lives.
These results are going to play a key role in our planning, they are going to demonstrate to us where we need to make progress, also, particularly as we implement the District Development Plan or Model, because through the DDM, we then going to be able to develop a clear one plan. Yes, for our country and provinces, for our districts and finally, for the
areas where our people live in the communities through the municipalities.
So, the Census results are hugely important and they are not just a tick box type of exercise, they are a toolbox and tools that are going to enable us to plan more carefully, to be able to lay more emphasis in areas where there are shortcomings and some of those areas are critical because they impact and affect almost certain provinces in our country, certain districts where we need to lay more emphasis on.
So, this Census is an important one and you are absolutely correct, we need to applaud StatsSA for having come out with these results against all odds. They had to go through huge challenges and as they have said themselves, there is a method or methodology that they are going to use to give more perfection to the results that they have come up with; and they need to be applauded, the entire staff and the statistician-general for the excellent work that they did.
As you say, other countries were not able to do due to covid and a whole number of other challenges. And in our case, yes, we had enormous challenges by the bucketful, but StatsSA was able to produce the results that are much needed, particularly
as we now move to the 30 years of our democracy and we prepare our 30-year review.
Our 30-year review would have been almost incredulous if it was not based on real statistics that have come from StatsSA. So, as we prepare our 30-year review in a very transparent manner so that all of us as South Africans we can see what progress we have made and where we have either remained stagnant or gone backwards, we will be able to use the information on the data that StatsSA has put on the table much more effectively and more credibly so that everyone who either has doubts or so can check what we will be putting out as the review against precisely what StatsSA has come up with.
And let me end by saying, in the end there are quite a number of institutions and organisations that come up with one set of statistics or another, and I should say in the end there is only one institution that has the credibility and that has the standing of coming up with real statistics, credible statistics and that is StatsSA. And let me end by saying, they do so because they are independent, they do so because they are transparent and they do so not to please any entity in our country, and that is what makes me proud about the work that many of our institutions do because they do so without any
favour, without any prejudice and, lastly, without any interference from government or anyone. I thank you, hon Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, no matter how you spin the Census data, South Africa is going backwards on every one of the socioeconomic indicators.
Basic education holds the key to improving people’s lives, yet our schooling system is broken. Eighty-one percent of Grade 4 learners cannot read for meaning, only three out of every 10 Grade 6 teachers can read analytically and solve maths problems.
We are at the bottom of the world in ... [Inaudible.] ... and seven out of 10 young people have been pushed into the unemployment queue because of this failing system. But instead of fixing the 95% of the schools that are broken, you now want to take control of the 5% of the schools that are working and delivering results. That’s why you have introduced the Basic Education Laws Amendment, BELA, Bill.
Everything the ANC has touched they've broken. Eskom, Denel Portnet, Transnet, every government department, every entity.
Why should the people of South Africa now trust you that you are not going to use the BELA Bill to destroy schools just like you have destroyed Eskom, just like you have destroyed SA Airways, SAA, just how you destroyed everything else that your government has touched? Thank you ... [Interjections.]
AN HON MEMBER: Hey, matric-less!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, all I can say is, as I said earlier, StatsSA has come out with Census data and the Census data speaks for itself. And however much anyone of us can try to spin it, to use hon Steenhuisen’s language, in the end, StatsSA has the last word. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Mr President, the Census 2022 report recorded that the overall population in South Africa increased by around ten million, with a total of 62 million people living in the country as of 2022.
According to StatsSA data more than 2,4 million immigrants called South Africa home, which equates to around 3% of the total population.
Considering that the survey did not distinguish between legal and illegal status: I would like to know how immigration policies will address the influx of illegal migrants across our country’s porous borders? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, a number of initiatives are underway, both executive as well as legislative, to address the issue of illegal migrants into our country.
We have spent a considerable amount of time at government level, at Cabinet level, discussing this matter and we’ll be coming forward with the type of legislative instruments that will help to address this matter.
But at the executive level we have implemented the Border Management Agency, BMA, which has already started to address this issue of illegal migration in our country.
In time, the BMA will report to Parliament and will be able to outline the successes that they have already started as a very young entity recently inaugurated.
One gets very pleased to see the type of agility, the type of effectiveness that they already are demonstrating. Yes, you could say we should have set the BMA up long ago, but we have set it up now and it is already doing its work and its most effective work is going to be addressing the issue of illegal migrants into our country.
And our country has always been welcoming to people who are from outside the borders of South Africa and we have often said that we would like this, yes, to be a home, because South Africa in the end belongs to all who live in it, but they must be legally here and that’s precisely what we are going to be focusing attention on going forward from a legislative as well as from regulatory and executive point of view. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr F J MULDER: Hon President, a Census is not in reality a full and accurate account of the number of people in a country, rather it is itself an estimate of the size of the population at a point in time.
What is perhaps most striking about the Census 2022 is the very high undercount of 31% of people and 30% of households were missed or those not to be self-numerate either online or
via zero-rated telephonic methods. This is the highest undercount since 1994 and a new international record.
What measures will the South African government implement between the post enumeration survey and the 2032 Census to eradicate the extremely high undercount experienced in 2022? Thank you, hon Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, yes, Statistics SA did say that as often happens in every centres, there is often the margin of error or non-counting, and in the interim they are going to be addressing this. They have a particular term they use, which escapes my thinking at the moment, but they are going to be doing a corrective process, embarking on a corrective process which is done all over the world, and that corrective process will be able to deal with the anomalies or the weaknesses that you have alluded to. It may well be possibly the higher one in the world, but it is not anomalous. It happens all over the world and the good thing is that StatsSA is addressing this matter and it was given rise to by a number of factors, for instance, the Western Cape was the one province that contributed greatly to this and there are reasons why the enumerators were not able to get to count as many households and as many people as they needed to. And that
too is going to be addressed and it is being addressed as we speak.
Going forward, and of course, before I even get to that, there were all these other challenges, the challenges that hon Dyantyi also referred to, that many other countries faced that in a way prevented them from even doing their own Census. We proceeded nonetheless, to produce a product, a product which, even with its own weaknesses, is a credible product and as I've said, StatsSA is the only credible organisation that can give us, yes, the estimates of our population because in the end Census does precisely that.
Going forward to 2032, yes, government will be taking steps to make sure that the Census process moves flawlessly forward, one of those is to allocate enough resources in time for StatsSA. That is one thing that we will focus our attention on and a whole number of other areas as well, including public education as well and including telling our people about the need for accessibility so that, yes, they can be counted as well. And also embarking on a massive campaign, a massive campaign that will enable people to feel much more comfortable and be willing to be counted.
So, there are a number of initiatives that we will embark upon. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Question 23:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the Minister of Finance yesterday tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, which outlined our country’s fiscal position and provided information on the government’s spending priorities over the next three years. Amongst other things, the Minister indicated in the MTBPS that we are resolved to stabilise public finances while maintaining support for the most vulnerable and protecting frontline services.
At the same time, we are fast-tracking growth-enhancing reforms, which include a new financing mechanism for large - what I call - ‘big ticket’ infrastructure projects. Work is underway to reconfigure the structure and size of the state while strengthening its capacity to deliver quality basic services. The cost containment guidelines issued by the National Treasury give advice and guidance to government departments to ensure a sound and prudent management of public finances in the context of significant constraints.
The increase in fiscal constraints is mainly due to reduced revenues. The cost containment guidelines target noncritical spending items such as travel, catering, accommodation and capital items that have not yet commenced, and this is also based on the issue of underspending because, as the Minister said, there has also been underspending which has given rise to by the departments not having the capacity, not fulfilling the required timeframes to be able to spend what has been allocated to them.
If you take that into account as well, you will see that, yes, the reduction has been aligned with the other issue of the underspending experience that we have had. The discussions that I and the Deputy President have with the Ministers on an ongoing basis are focused on how the programmes as well as the activities undertaken by our various government departments advance economic growth. They also advance social development and service delivery and focus on the priorities that have been set to be achieved.
The Ministers and their departments engage with the National Treasury on how best to implement any budget restructuring and how to delay projects where necessary without compromising the needs of communities. As indicated in the MTBPS yesterday, we
are on course to prudently manage government expenditure while we retain our focus on infrastructure, health, education and policing as critical areas of growth and development. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, yesterday your Finance Minister again tabled a budget based on misplaced priorities. In just one example of these crooked priorities, your government and your Finance Minister took R57 million from the Department of Basic Education, set aside for eradicating pit toilets at schools, to fund, wait for it, even higher salaries for deployed cadres. This is despite the fact that over 55 000 of your bureaucrats now earn over R1 million per year.
These cuts to the infrastructure budget of Basic Education undermine what you've just told this House and also are a slap in the face for the family of Langalam Viki, who died tragically in March this year in a pit toilet in the Eastern Cape. As it has done so many times before, your government has chosen cadres over the citizens. You have chosen to pay higher salaries by slashing frontline services and the fight against eradicating pit toilets and you are pushing us towards a debt
crisis where South Africa's debt will be over R6 trillion by 2025-26.
Mr President, I ask a simple question, to fund this debt and to fund these cuts, and it's a simple yes or no question, will you raise taxes in the February budget next year for South Africans, yes or no?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the answer is a very simple one. I would like the Leader of the Opposition to be present next year in February in the House when the Minister of Finance presents his Budget, he will hear whether that will happen or not. Thank you, hon Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Mnu N S BUTHELEZI: Sibonge, Mongameli, ...
English:
... hon President, due to under-collection, the budget deficit has increased by R54,7 billion compared to the February budget and that is because of many factors and many of them we know that there are exogenous factors.
The ANC welcomes the agility of the government in stabilising public finances. We also agree that the answer is sustainable economic growth. Hon President, what are the interventions that you will be making to ensure that as we deliver on the infrastructure, what you called the big-ticket projects, those things are implemented within the budget without any form of collusion or corruption within the budgeted time? Please, Mr President, can you please take us into your confidence? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon House Chair, thank you, hon Buthelezi, yes, indeed one of the things that we are seeking to focus on which we have been focusing on for a considerable amount of time is to put in place effective funding mechanisms for the infrastructure projects. Yes, what you have correctly said I said, big-ticket infrastructure projects. We want those projects to move ahead and a good example is how we are now finding ways, for instance, to get on with big projects like the Umzimvubu Dam, which was initially a R17 billion project and when we get to the second phase it will add more billions of rand and to completion as well.
So, that requires innovative funding and innovative funding mechanisms. Yesterday, the Minister said that we are going to be embarking on new funding mechanisms for these projects and this has given rise to the challenges that we face at a fiscal level, but also the desire that we have to inject growth in our country, in our economy by also embarking on these big infrastructure projects and we are, therefore, going to be introducing mechanisms to fund these projects for instance, frontloading as we call it, funding, for instance, the funding of schools, construction of schools, funding of housing, frontloading that by finding innovative ways of funding that because if we don't do that, we are going to wait for the longest time. For instance, one person estimated that just to put the schools, for instance, in a province like Limpopo on a much more effective or competitive level to improve the infrastructure in our schools will take us 75 years and we now need to achieve our dreams a lot earlier and find innovative ways of funding that infrastructure process. Now, as the Minister said, we have embarked on such a frontloading process with the Northern Cape and other provinces are going to follow in tow where we are now going to speed up the process of ensuring that there is proper infrastructure that is going to support the lives of our people.
Other measures are going to be built, operated and transferred where we will be able to engage partners, partners who will be able to invest money and we will be able to not only build but maintain those infrastructure big ticket installations of facilities and then in the end operate them and transfer at all material times. We will be having a developmental approach to make sure that all this is done in an affordable way and yes, there will be another speeding up of processes such as the PPPs, the private-public partnership process which has stalled, which we are now going to ensure that it gets off the ground once again so that we utilise it as a very good funding mechanism. So, to answer your question directly, we are going to effectively execute infrastructure programmes or projects on a large scale and we are already involved in, for instance, the second phase of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project, which is also a mega infrastructure project. We are also implementing water projects in a number of areas in our country and the end we want to have dams and real effective and working waterworks ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members. Hon President, our apologies for that interruption. May we ask that the microphone of that member be disabled, please? Please continue, hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... So, in dealing with corruption we have also established the Infrastructure Built Anti-Corruption Forum, which is a multistakeholder collaboration against fraud, corruption and maladministration in the construction sector, and from a criminal justice point of view, we are also going to be focusing on the construction mafia. We have now set up an effective team at the police level which is also going to be well supported by the various other agencies in our criminal justice system to ensure that we are able to implement these construction or infrastructure projects without interference and disruption by the construction mafia because we are now going to go after them, those who want to disrupt our infrastructure projects, we will deal with them toe-to-toe. Infrastructure is now going to be one of the key areas of focus. We have had to address the lack of capacity. We have had to address the lack of greater clarity on the funding mechanisms. We have now reached a level where we are now unleashing all that and we are now going to see a lot of infrastructure projects strewn right across our country. Thank you very much.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, House Chair, Hon President, the cost containment measures will not be necessary if the money in the fiscus is doubled. The country is looking
for R15 billion next year. Hon President, how about suggesting to the Minister of Finance to tax, especially big business, on sales and services instead of only on profits because profits are diluted by what I call illicit tax avoidance? I am not speaking about tax evasion which is a criminal activity. Hon President, I would like to also welcome the guests of the hon Shaik Emam. Hon President, are you open to the suggestions of the Leader of the Opposition? Thank you. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, there are a number of ways in which we can enhance our tax collection processes. I should say that we have a very effective tax collector in our country, which is the SA Revenue Service, Sars, which has proven to be hugely effective because over time they've been able to succeed in ensuring that taxes are paid in the most proper manner in terms of our laws and we have taken the trouble to ensure that we will continue funding them because what they bring in terms of tax revenue far outweighs the costs that we put in place to enable them to do their work.
Yes, whilst our corporate taxes have come down, we should applaud the fact that our income tax processes have shown a great deal of improvement that demonstrates two things, that
South Africans through exercising their patriotism, are becoming more of a taxpaying community.
The second part is the effectiveness of our tax collection agency in the form of Sars, so that should please us and as the economy recovers, as our companies become more profitable, we will be able to increase our tax collection from companies with the laws that we now have in place.
Tax avoidance is a matter that those who seek to avoid tax or evade tax do so at their peril because our tax collection agency is very much alive and awake and they are able to follow the money. I see, as our economy improves and we also address some of the challenges that we have, particularly in the logistics area as well as the energy area, the taxes that are paid by our companies will start ticking upwards increasing, as to be able to increase the collections of our taxes so that we can fund the various programmes that we have and also on an ongoing basis, improve the economic performance of our country. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair, hon President, the ACDP shares your commendation of the work that Sars has done over the years and the improvement in tax collection. One of the
issues, however, that Sars does raise is the issue of underfunding and the issue that I would like to raise with you, President is, surely if one is able to capacitate SARS more, they will be able to collect more taxes and be more efficient, and we know that they were hollowed out during the State Capture years and are improving on their performance and we commend them in that regard.
However, we understand that there is a tax gap of a few R100 billion, maybe in the area of about R300 billion is monies that are on Sars debt book that are due to Sars and
have not been collected yet for a variety of reasons. If 10% of that is collected, that would be an extra R30 billion.
President, would you agree that Sars should be fully resourced for them to collect fully and that would help us balance the books? Thank you, Chairperson.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair yes, I agree and that is as simply and as directly as I can put it. A well- resourced Sars would be a very effective investment that we as a country make in increasing our revenue, revenue that will stand us in good stead when it comes to funding the necessities or the needs of our people in the formal
programmes that we embarked upon and the investments that we need to put in place.
I could not agree more, and we will be focusing on that even as we go to next year's Budget to make sure that Sars is not short-changed. It is that when Sars is properly funded, as you correctly said, hon Swart, that we will be able to see greater collections and that's what we will focus on. Thank you, hon Chair.
Question 24:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chairperson, I would like to start by saying that, yes, the question that hon Holomisa has raised is an important and key one and addresses the capability of the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, in the way it needs to respond to the challenges that we face. As the Minister of Finance indicated in the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, yesterday, the severely constrained fiscal environment is putting pressure on every component of the state on all its programmes.
We have therefore embarked on a path to consolidate our spending, to pursue growth through reforms and reconfigure the size and structure of the state while protecting, as I have
said, the delivery of basic services to our people. The work of the SANDF is critical to the security of our country and the safety and well-being of its people.
The constrained fiscal environment has required that the SANDF prioritise its activities to optimise the effectiveness and efficiency of all aspects of defence organisation. Based on extensive analysis, the SANDF has developed a plan that is known within the Department of Defence as the journey to greatness. This is based on how over the years the funding of our SANDF has been going down and we have sought to arrest that and to begin a process of uplifting the capacitation and the funding of the defence force.
In terms of this plan, the disaster management capability, as you asked of the SANDF will form part of the greater rapid deployment capability. This capability consists of land, air, maritime and military health services, with dedicated specialists and supporting elements capable of being deployed for a range of missions at short notice.
Despite the constraints, the SANDF continues to demonstrate that it is ready, willing and able to respond to both national, internal, regional and international threats. The
SANDF has participated in various peacekeeping missions under the auspices of the United Nations, the African Union and the Southern African Development Community, SADC, the SANDF played a critical role in responding to the catastrophic floods that struck KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape in 2022, as well as parts of North West.
Through Operation Chariot, which is a standing contingency operation for support to other government departments for disaster management and humanitarian relief, the SANDF undertook search and rescue operations, it also transported relief materials and equipment and assisted with the repair and rehabilitation of roads and bridges. We should expect that the country will continue to experience extreme weather conditions due to climate change and that the SANDF will be called upon to assist in responding to any disasters that may arise. We can all agree that we would want the SANDF as well as all critical components of the state, to have more resources and more capability. The defence force has nevertheless shown itself to be capable of responding effectively when called upon to do so, and they will continue to respond effectively whenever called upon to do so, as they always respond to the call of duty. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, he has connectivity challenges can I take over the question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am not sure if it is a connectivity challenge. Can I take over the question? I’m sure it’s connectivity problems because. Can I just intervene here? The hon member is on the platform and I am told that the feedback that we were hearing was because his microphone is intermittently on and off. I will first establish if he can take the question and if not, you can step in for him. The hon Holomisa can now unmute his microphone and put his question.
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon President, thank you for the elaborate answer. Understanding that in 1998 a decision was taken to focus more on social security. However, circumstances on home soil have drastically changed, especially in the past five years. Given that there are increased threats to domestic peace and security, there is a greater need for an adaptable SANDF to act in support of the SA Police Service. Yet the SANDF's equipment is obsolete and suitable training is lacking. Do you agree that the time is right to take another look at the SANDF mandate about local peacekeeping and ensuring the safety of our citizens? This
question is based on what happened in the 2021 mayhem in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Hon House Chair. Thank you, General Holomisa [retired], your observations are apt. They are based on our recent experience of how the SANDF has been utilised for internal security as well as disaster management tasks, tasks they have undertaken with great commitment and when they have been called upon to support the one unit whose primary task is the security of South Africans and the safety of South Africans inside the country, they have been willingly unable to do so. It was not only during the 2021 July unrest, but it was also during COVID-19 when we enlisted the SANDF to support the South African Police Service.
Recently, I wrote to the Speaker of the National Assembly as well as the Chairperson of the Council of Provinces, informing them that I am extending the deployment of almost 900 soldiers to work in assisting the police when it comes to safeguarding public infrastructure in our country, and also in doing and performing other tasks such as having to deal with the brazen acts of criminals in construction as well as in illegal mining. So, we already see that the support that they lend to
the police is quite invaluable and is appreciated not only by the police but by the citizens of our country. Whenever there are safety and security challenges, they have always asked for soldiers to support the police. So, your question is apt. But clearly, it is a constitutional matter that needs to be looked at very, very carefully.
However, as we improve the capability and the resourcing of the SANDF and as they embark on their journey to greatness, these are matters that we will continue looking at. I am very proud of how our SANDF members and the command thereof have taken on the tasks that they have always been given, both inside and outside of our country. It is a SANDF that we can truly be proud of and we are also proud of the leadership that it has. You, hon Holomisa, being a former not only soldier, but a commander and a general, I am sure you will appreciate that our national defence force is really up to the tasks at the best and worst of times. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Ms M MODISE: Thank you, House Chair. Hon President, as we note the insufficient funding and budget constraints in the SANDF we also appreciate the role of the SANDF in providing humanitarian support during disasters as we saw in KZN, Eastern Cape and North West and it has highly displayed the
SANDF’s capability. Can the President outline the proactive measures and initiatives that the government has undertaken to reinforce the SANDF’s operational capabilities for its disaster management support, considering the increasing exigencies brought about by climate change?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon House Chair. Yes, we can speak very proudly of how the SANDF has distinguished itself, particularly when it has embarked on operations inside our country, not only inside our country but also with the assistance of some of our neighbours. Some of our neighbours whenever there are climate change disasters always rely on our air capabilities to assist them and also on our engineering capabilities to assist them in rebuilding some of their infrastructure. So, we have a national defence force that is capable.
As you correctly say, the underfunding that has been going on about the SANDF is a matter that we are addressing. I have also said that we need to increase the funding for the SANDF so that they are always ready and always capable of being able to take on not only tasks of defending the integrity of the republic but also its people and also ensuring that when there are disasters, they are the best capable of addressing
disasters or helping our people navigate their way through disastrous climate change effects. The humanitarian aspect of how they execute their tasks is something that stands out because they do that with care, they do that with great compassion and they do that with great capability. One has seen them in action both here and in other countries who are our neighbours and one always marvels at how our soldiers, our naval officers and our pilots and air crews can execute the tasks that they are given.
We have, as I said earlier, a South African National Defence Force that we can truly be proud of, well trained, and well prepared at all times. The other thing we should truly be proud of is that more and more our National Defence Force is becoming more and more diverse, a true representative entity of what our country stands for in terms of its diversity.
Thank you, hon House Chair.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much. Hon President, it is duplicitous to say that you are fighting for more funding for the SANDF when your MTBPS tabled yesterday speaks exactly the opposite. The reality is that our South African Air Force and our SANDF are on their deathbeds.
Frankly, your words of praise ring hollow when you will not
support equip, train and ensure that our men and women in uniform have the best possible equipment that they need. In response to a question put to the Minister of Defence Minister last week revealed that 85% of South Africa’s aircraft fleet is currently out of action. That is because they are non- serviceable, they are old or there are no spare parts to fix them. Sounds a bit like the ANC. This is yet another ANC-made crisis and another example of something that you have broken just like Transnet, Eskom, Prasa and the list goes on. They could hardly come to the rescue of our citizens in times of trouble in Kwa-Zulu-Natal.
Mr President a simple question again. Can you, as Commander in Chief of the South African National Defence Force, say with a clear conscience to all of us as South Africans that we could protect South Africa if we were attacked from within or without?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair the answer is simply yes. We have a very capable SANDF. Much as the hon Leader of the Opposition tries to undermine and to degrade them, you only need to speak not only to South Africans but also to those beyond our borders who will tell you how our men and women in uniform, when deployed on missions outside of the
borders of our country, demonstrate not only bravery but capability to execute the tasks that they are deployed in by the United Nations, by the African Union, by the South African Development Community, SADC. And if you did not want to listen to any of the things that I have said, you only need to speak to those three organisations and they will tell you how the SANDF is fully capable of coming to the defence of the citizens of South Africa because of the prowess capability that they have always displayed whenever they are deployed. I have seen it in action when we have called upon them and when I have deployed them they have always lived up to their true capability.
Yes, even if they are confronted with many restrictions. These are constraints that we are dealing with now, the challenges that we are facing now, and the slump that we will experience in terms of their household is only temporary. We have embarked on what they call “a journey to greatness” and that journey is rightly going to our South African National Defence Force.
I was the first to receive their ambitions and I have agreed with them that yes, we would like them as the defence force to return to greatness which is going to require funding and
funding that we will make available. Currently, what we are going through is a momentary dip. The ambition is great the ambition is correct to ensure that our national defence force becomes even more capable than we can imagine. Thank you, hon House.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chair. Mr President, I think we must agree if you listen to the statement by our Minister of Defence and I must admit that if there is anybody capable of turning the South African National Defence, then indeed it is our Minister Thandi Modise. She also said that what is happening in the SANDF is not sustainable. There is no doubt about it. If you want her to turn it around, you have to give her the tools of trade. I think the question is how quickly we can provide the tools, given the fact, Mr President, that this country has taken decisions on the moral high ground that have made us so unpopular with the threat from the West and Israel that South Africans are being trained in the Israeli Defence Force, which is a serious matter. How do you intend to deal with these two challenges that we face, given the challenges we have in the defence forces? Yes, I know that you have said, Mr President, that resources will be made available, but time is of the essence. I would ask you to
tell us how soon we can expect funding for the defence forces so that they can be successful and defend ...?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair. Indeed, time is of the essence when it comes to fully capacitating our SANDF, and it is a commitment that we are making that we will capacitate the defence force. The good thing and the pleasing thing is that the defence force, led by Minister Modise has come up with a clear plan of a journey to greatness. They want to be a great defence force and we already have a very good foundation is not like we are starting from scratch. And as we move further forward and as our fiscal position improves, the defence force is going to be one of those government entities that we are going to focus more attention on.
Yes, when I realized that over the number of years, the budget has continuously been coming down. I did say that we need to turn this around. Last year, we were able to allocate a little bit more money to them, but now we are facing challenges that have required that we reprioritise and they are one of those government departments that have come forward and said we can reprioritise this and that. But going forward, as I correctly, said, we are going to ensure that, yes, they are well funded, well capacitated. Hon Shaik-Emam, we will make sure that that
soon comes sooner and that they are given the tools that will make them even more capable than they are. Thank you, hon House Chair
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon President Hon members, that concludes questions to the President. I wish to thank His Excellency the President. I request members to stand and wait for the Chairperson and the mace to leave the Chamber.
Questions concluded.
The House adjourned at 16:18.
Audio
No related