Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 10 Oct 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF VIRTUAL (OR HYBRID) NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Watch here: Plenary
The Council met at 14:02.
The House Chairperson: International Relations and Members Support took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon members, before we start, I would like to recognise the delegation from Georgetown University in Dakar. Part of the delegation are students. Can we welcome them. Thank you, hon members.
Students, welcome to the National Council of Provinces in South Africa. Thank you.
Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the rules relating to the virtual and hybrid meeting and sitting, in particular, subrules 21, 22 and 23 of Rule 103 which provides as follows:
The hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces; that the delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the sitting of the National Council of Provinces; that for purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on the virtual platform shall be considered present; that delegates must switch off their video if they want to speak; that delegates must ensure that the microphone of their electronic devices is muted and must always remain muted unless they are permitted to speak; all delegates in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system; that delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones; and that all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room.
In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active; permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive on the virtual platform are required to ensure that they can facilitate access to the interpretation services; permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation instrument of their desk to access the interpretation facility.
Hon delegates, in accordance with Council Rule 229(1), there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. Hon delegates, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister from the Social Service cluster, especially the Minister of Human Settlements and the Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture, permanent delegates, MECs, all special delegates and Salga representatives to the House.
Further, I would like to remind delegates that in terms of Rule 229 of the Council Rules, the time for reply by the Minister to the question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. The member who asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question.
Can the member silence the phone, please. You are disturbing.
The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time for reply to a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate from the initial question.
Hon members, I will now call on the Minister of Human Settlements to respond to Question 208 asked by hon S Shaikh for five minutes per respond to a question. Hon Shaikh as follow-up question, two minutes. Hon Minister, please respond for four minutes.
Hon members, before the Minister can start, I would like this to be recorded. The four minutes is in the guide but I'll change it because the correct minutes is five minutes and not four minutes. So, it has been corrected. It's five minutes, Minister. Hon members, I would like to ask the Minister to respond to the question asked by the hon Shaikh,
Question 208:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, good afternoon to you, hon members and viewers at home. Let me take this opportunity to acknowledge the visitors from Georgetown University in Qatar for being present and being part of this session. The question: Hon Shaik, in 2021, the Department of Human Settlements and the sector took a decision to unlock all projects, or what we call unlocking of projects that have stopped for the period of three financial years, namely the 2022-23 financial year, the 2023-24 and the 2024-25 financial year.
A blocked or incomplete project is defined as follows: A project with lack of progress, whereby the first progress payment was made, however, no progress has been made for a period of at least 12 months. The blocked or incomplete project includes serviced sites and houses at different levels of construction, either on slabs, wall plates, roofs, etc.
Over the years, experience has taught us that human settlement projects get blocked or unfinished for various reasons, which include, but are not limited to the following: poor performance of contractors, some of whom would have abandoned sites; lack of bulk infrastructure and linked services; illegal land occupation; geo-tech variation; construction mafias and community unrest.
The diagnostic report revealed the following: As of the end of June 2022, there were 3 445 blocked projects that we had identified. A total of 2 872 of the identified projects needed to be closed off, once provinces concluded a reconciliation process that ensured that all the targeted outputs are satisfied. With the status of the 2 872 projects clarified, the national Department of Human Settlements, working together with provinces, reached a consensus of unblocking 192
projects. Those are at various stages and we are monitoring it.
I must highlight, for ensuring that houses given to citizens are of good quality, the National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, ensures that all Breaking New Ground, BNG, projects are enrolled with them. If the NHBRC identifies any unrolling project under construction, the project is immediately stopped.
Furthermore, the NHBRC conducts quality assurance in all BNG projects and issues an enrolment confirmation letter. The process involves the assessment of geo-tech investigation reports, foundation designs, house plans for completion and also ensuring that specifications are correct.
During construction, the NHBRC inspectors conduct a minimum of four inspections at the following stages: at foundation level, superstructure, practical completion and storm water. Once the house is completed and complies with all the technical requirements, a final unit report is issued by the NHBRC. The final report confirms that the House or the home has a five- year structural warranty and we are currently happy that the Consumer Bill is being finalised by the NCOP, because it
strengthens the work that is being done by the NHBRC. We are hoping that, as the work continues, it will be approved, so that it can protect our consumers from those who are doing wrong or even the risk of having compromised houses given to them. And we are looking forward to this, as it will go a long way in the sector and confirming the quality of houses that we have committed to our citizens. Thank you very much.
Ms S SHAIKH: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, thank you for your response to this question, which I think was very comprehensive. As the hon Minister has also alluded to some of the challenges with regard to deficient performance of some contractors, you may be aware of allegations that such contractors have received payment, while they have not completed their work. In instances where such cases are being reported or detected, what is the plan of the department to recover the money for the work not completed? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chairperson, thank you, hon member Shaik for the follow-up. Indeed, there are instances, as I have said, where there are various reasons why projects are not being concluded and one of them could be the
issue around contractors who do not finish their work for various reasons.
In cases where we have seen that it is definitely because the contractors have done wrong, we also work together with law enforcement agencies to report. For example, I recently visited the Free State in the Matjhabeng area, where we found several projects that were not completed, but we have spent a lot of money. You find that the project is sitting at 60%, but
100 or 95% of the money has been spent. We compiled all those reports, forwarded it to the SIU for further investigation, because by law, you are not able to start recovering the money or the department does not have the authority to institute a process of recovering the money without law enforcement agencies.
So, it is through law enforcement agencies, through the SIU and their other agencies who are able to seizure, take money from the companies or even freeze the assets of those companies, that we can recover. So, the department always compiles that report, where we find the information and send it through to the SIU for them to do further investigations, to determine who was wrong in the process and institute legal processes.
They are also able to give the department - whether the provincial or even our own entities, such as with the Talana incident - names of officials. For example, with the Housing Development Agency, HDA, we were able to start the disciplinary processes within the institution.
So, we do have processes and also consequence management, but we have to follow the law and follow the procedure, so that there are no comebacks or even people getting away just because of technicality in the process. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, I would like to know when will companies, as well as individual shareholders of those companies that are guilty of building substandard houses or not completing housing projects be blacklisted and placed on a transparent database that disqualify them from doing any business with any government department or government-owned entities? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Smit, I think we are on the same page there. We want to see the companies that have done wrong to our citizens and taken the money facing the consequences. Unfortunately, the department does not have such powers. So, what we have done, for example, in certain
instances - I can use the ones that we had to deal with in the portfolio committee while I am here, and the Talana matter - we reported the matter to National Treasury, so that they can be removed from the central database and be blacklisted.
The process takes long and it is a bit complicated. We have requested to find a better way or even amend legislation or some of the regulations, to make it easier for such companies not to receive business from the state. It takes long, even for me, to receive such feedback that they have been blacklisted.
So, we did, through the HDA write about the companies that were involved in Talana to say these are the companies that are before court, through the SIU. And currently, there is a recovering of the money, but we want to ensure that they do not do business. So, you do find them sometimes and then you succeed in terms of asking for them to be blacklisted through the central database, but sometimes, they do go into some of the areas and do business. So, it is work that the department has to do collaboratively with other departments that are facing the same challenges, National Treasury and law enforcement.
I think that part of what we have to do is to look at the legislative gaps that exist, so that we close them, especially as Members of Parliament, so that those companies do not continue to get away with murder. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon Chair of the House, Minister, for years, our people have had to endure lack of housing and in instances where attempts are made to provide housing, it is of poor and substandard quality. What reasons lie behind the persistent lack of planning and poor implementation strategies displayed by you and your department? And which strategies have been put in place to engage key stakeholders, such as state-owned enterprises to unlock strategic parcels of land, which are suitable for human settlements? Thank you.
Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, on a point of order: In terms of standard processes, in the Chamber, can you just remind members not to walk in front of a member who is speaking to the Chairperson? The member right in front of me, walked straight in front, while I was still busy speaking.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon member, I hope we have duty Whips here to do that work. Thank you, hon member.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Minister, hon member, thank you very much for the question. My apologies, I missed the name. Let’s start here first. It is not correct to generalise that we have not done work across. There has been quality of houses that we have handed to communities. There have been quite good houses that we have been able to give, with decent
... Actually, right now, as we speak, we are giving houses with solar panels and in rural areas, we are even giving houses with water tanks and many of them have been done very well. I can go to Limpopo, Mpumalanga and all provinces. I handed over quality houses.
We do however have incidences where you have contractors that did not finish their work, because of either poor quality, where they have done wrong. That is why I am saying, let’s not generalise because there are good contractors that have delivered on their mandate, within time and budget.
Now, with the issue around the strategies in place, one, we do monitoring and evaluation across the country and we visit provinces to check on sites and intervene immediately. Two, we do monitoring of projects through Minmec, to see how far they have gone and what needs to be done, if there are challenges. Three, through the NHBRC, we do quality control and assurance
where there are problems, as we do deal with the issues. We have now even come to realise the gaps that exist with the quality assurance and the work that needs to be done with NHBRC, and therefore, we introduced the Consumer Protection Bill to Parliament, so that it enhances the work that we are doing around that area here. So, even when people are building privately, they will face the consequences. We are tightening where there are gaps and also ensuring that there are consequences, and no one gets away with it. So, that is the reason for that Bill and that is the work that we have done.
On the issue of acquisition of land by state-owned entities, for example, what government has committed is that, in the phase-in approach of work being done by Public Works, they have identified almost at the beginning, 14 000 hectares of land that need to be handed over to the Department of Human Settlements for building for people. We are currently in the phase where we have handed over almost about 2,6 hectares and there are various stages in terms of development.
We will continue to work and that is the work that we are doing. Public Works identify all the land parcels. We don’t have to go to each and every individual state-owned entity or department or municipality. They are doing that on our behalf
and we are hoping that, as we continue, we will be identifying more, so that we can build for the citizens of this country, as we committed in the Freedom Charter that there shall be security, houses and comfort. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, hon Minister, you did speak to the blacklisting of contractors, but I want to find out, were any MECs or HODs of the department reprimanded or disciplined in provinces where these housing projects were unfinished or where substandard quality housing was placed. Thank you
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Du Toit, no, we have not had an incident where there is a need to reprimand an MEC or request for an MEC to be reprimanded, nor have we had an incident that requires for an HOD to be reprimanded. Both of them or individually, MECs are governed by different legislation and also accounting to the premiers. We didn’t have to report any MEC for that, neither have we had to deal within the Public Service Act with any HOD.
However, what has been the case, for example, we do not have a direct HOD that has been involved. There are currently examples in the Free State, where officials are currently before the courts for particular work that has not been done
within the Human Settlements. And we are grateful to law enforcement agencies for assisting us in that regard.
And again, I made an example of the HDA where the SIU referred officials to us for DC. We undertook that process through the HDA with the officials, but neither of them were at the level where you can say it is a CEO or even at board level.
So, it is officials at the lower level who are involved in procurement processes or in terms of project management and evidence is tangible against them in that regard. And those actions continue to be taken.
Therefore, this work is important for us. We also call on the public to work with us because we would not know certain things, as a department or government. If communities are aware, they must work with us, so that there is zero tolerance for corruption and malfeasance within the state, so that we can continue to deliver, as expected by our citizens. Thank you.
Question 214:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I think it gives an opportunity for me to clarify what has been in the
public domain misconceptions. On 8 August 2023 I addressed the inaugural Community Scheme on Ombud Services, CSOS, Indaba and called for transformation in the community schemes economy.
The speech is available on website. It was livestream, verbatim, you can find what I have said on record.
I’ve received complaints, hon member, from residents in the gated community support, lack of transparency by some of those who serve in these body corporates, who give business opportunities to their friends and relatives.
I’ve called for transparency in how schemes sources, various services and provide opportunities to Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, who live in those gated communities.
Surely, this must be supported by everyone who understand the prescripts of the Constitution, which promotes equal opportunity for all South Africans.
We must also not run away from the fact that our economy remains skewed where majority of the wealth is in the hands of 4% of the population of this country, that majority of South Africans because of the injustices of the past remain closed out from participating in the economy.
Transformation of our economy is important and critical in order to protect and sustain our democracy. Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, as a policy remains one of the critical tools to ensure there is redress of past injustices and therefore, should not be regarded as a tool that is illegal or irregular.
Advocating for transformation through or using BBBEE must not be also regarded as advocating for corruption as this is a wrong perception that sometimes suggests that corruption and nepotism only happen in the state and not in the private sector.
As earlier indicated, the outcry of nepotism and corruption in these schemes is what led to my call for openness and transparency of this subsector.
In my speech I went on to elaborate that 27% of the total value of residential property in South Africa is from organised communities, which means that community schemes are significant in the sector that I’m leading.
I further indicated that when you look at management companies across the country they remain few and untransformed and
requested that the deliberations look at this matter and make proposals of interventions to change the current situation.
We need to bring awareness to many residents who live in gated communities so that they know their rights and their powers so that they can help us challenge the status quo.
It is against all of this above that I make a call today again and that I made at the Indaba that we have to advocate for transformation of our economy. But most importantly, advocate for transparency and also for accountability, whether it’s in government or in private sector. We have to do this all so that we can ensure that we deal with poverty, unemployment and inequality in this country.
We will know that we have not achieved our objectives in transforming the economy of this country as long as a black woman remains the face of poverty in this country. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, as the Minister is using this opportunity to clarify on her statement, I would like to ask Minister the following: Notwithstanding the fact that the department has confirmed that there is no record of a decision
to substantiate your irresponsible and uninformed statement on
8 August to capture gated communities, will you use this platform today to apologise to the nation for making a misleading claim about non-existing policy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Smit, I don’t know which department you are talking about that has confirmed. I’m leading this department, I advocate and speak on behalf of this department, I am the chief spokesperson of this department. And I am saying to you that there’s been complaints of nepotism in the gated communities.
We have several of them under adjudication, we have several of them at the courts, as we speak, at the high court. Whether in terms of the policy, yes, we are looking at the policy, that’s why we are calling for the amendment of the legislation.
Now, there is no apology. We can’t promote nepotism, where a person who sits in a board of corporate in an estate appoints their children.
There’s another one in court where the estate in Pretoria, the person has been sentenced and unfortunately it’s a 70-year-old
who’s been sentenced for scrupulously taking money of the body corporate.
There are many examples I can give you. They exist and people are tired of it. They are looking from us to give direction and leadership.
Now, this is what we want to do. In that meeting, because it was the first indaba, I said to them ‘you are here as people who are existing in this’.
Because we work together with our stakeholders, we partner with them, we listen to them, we respond to what they are raising. I said to them, these are the concerns that exist. You have asked us to change the adjudication process because you are feeling that it’s not transparent, it’s not helping you. Part of what we will do now, give me your proposal so that as the Minister with the authority I have, I can put regulations so that we can do. So, that’s the process where we are, hon members.
Where does the power lie? In the Act that gives the Minister the power to do regulations and we will be doing regulations to control what nepotism that is happening.
Every SMME in those gated estates, whether it’s for cleaning, whether it’s for gardening, they must get an opportunity. It can’t be because I sit in the body corporate, I go and bring my son who doesn’t even know what to do. Those are the experiences, real time experiences in those gated communities. And because we govern everybody in this country, even in those gated communities we have an obligation to provide for regulations, provide for policy but also protect the most vulnerable and that, we shall do without fear or favour. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr S J MOHAI: I am honoured, House Chair, to do the follow up question. Hon Minister, we implore you never to be apologetic about disposition, you have just to the country now, eloquently, and also which encourages us as members not to make reckless statements without substantiating them.
It’s important in our exercise of oversight that we really unearth more information so that we act as responsible public representatives.
It doesn’t require rocket science to know and appreciate that body corporates are by law juristic persons and are, therefore, bound by these provisions.
In fact, the critical question that should matter is: How does the department envisage translating this into a coherent national policy agenda as a matter of urgency?
I think, Minister, you have really shared a very useful information. I must say, once again. Thanks.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Mohai, indeed, we are looking at, firstly, to make stop gap measures in the current process to ensure that the matter does not continue. As we said by law, currently, in the CSOS Act, it does give the Minister the power to intervene and pronounce on regulations that need to be controlling the sector.
Secondly, in terms of long term, we are currently finalising our White Paper Policy on Human Settlements that is going to go into the Cabinet process and it will go for public comments.
One of the areas is to look at broadly around transformation, but ensuring that we have subsectors that are sustainable, are actually transparent and actually accountable. Every institution that is within our sector, whether within the state or outside the state, must be an institution or a body
corporate, if we are talking about them, that is transparent in their manner of operation but also accountable to the people that they are serving.
And in that process we are looking at also, including that part as part of our process, and then finally, it will come neat to the amendment of the CSOS Act and this will be the long-term work that we will do.
I must assure hon members, as this government we’ve always emphasised the importance of public participation and ensuring that we do what is engagement with the public, and that’s why this conversation was held at a stakeholder engagement and an indaba with the people who are in that sector. It was not done in the streets somewhere, it was not done outside the stakeholders themselves; it was a statement that was calling for the subsector itself, the stakeholder within that subsector to reflect because it’s important as we travel this journey, in terms of our work, based on our experiences, that we reflect on what we are doing, whether it’s in the best interests of those that we say we serve and the body corporates are not exempted from this. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, in relation to your statement about the need for economic transformation to take place in the community schemes economy, you also stated that the transformation of the managing agents in this sector remains critical.
Considering this, I would like to know what measures your department has in place to ensure that managing agents are adequately capacitated to mainstream the cultural diversity agenda? Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Radebe, what we are doing we’ve set aside a fund within the Community Schemes Organisations, CSOs, so that we can be able to capacitate in terms of training and capacity building for the management organisations that want to operate.
We do believe that this will go a long way. There’s been resources that have been set aside. But we believe that it has to be a conscious decision that we drive in terms of engagement with the sector, but also ensuring that those who believe in building a united South Africa are working with us, that it’s not only government alone that does this work, but also broadly as a sector.
So, there are resources that we have set aside. Currently, the engagement following the indaba is continuing. We would want to see more registration of companies, but we will provide training and capacity building, support them so that they can be standing and also become sustainable in the future. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms S B LEHIHI: Modulasetilo [Chairperson], whether the Minister agrees that both BBBEE and the tender process have dismally failed in transforming the conditions of our people as there has been no tangible or visible changes of economic ownership in this country? Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, the danger in engagement is when you generalise. Most of the time it helps when you are able to specifically say ‘in this area there has been failures’. BBBEE might have its weaknesses but it has not generally failed.
I can stand here as Minister in various portfolios and the work that we have been able to do, having been taken to court to fight for transformation of the economy and in those sectors that I do know that it has afforded majority of those
that would not have participated in those sectors an opportunity to participate.
If we go in terms of here, even in this portfolio, when we look in terms of the budget of Human Settlements, we are able to set aside 40% for women who participate in this as part of redress. This, in terms of the rand value, is R11 billion ... financial year.
So, it’s those policies that allow us and enable us to be able to implement this set aside, that recognises and creates an opportunity to say there is an obligation we have as government to ensure that we transform the sector.
So, I am not so sure, hon member, which specific sector that you are referring to that has not been transformed. You can go to tourism, you can go to mining, you can go to many other sectors that exist in this country, that in various areas BBBEE has allowed us to be able to transform.
As I say every time, not everything has been perfect. Some of the issues, yes, we have learnt lessons and there will be weaknesses, but does not mean that we have completely failed. There are leading examples that we can give you, there are
practical examples, we can send you to projects, we can send you to businesses, we can send you province by province, and list where there has been development and actually empowerment of the people who ordinarily would not have been able to be empowered and participate in the economy if it was not the government being able to intervene in that regard. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Question 209:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chairperson, looking at the matter that we are dealing with, the department, from a police point of view, has identified vulnerable groups, which include households that are headed by children and persons with disabilities, as a priority. However, the gap exists in terms of implementation in various provinces.
Persons who recorded their housing needs on the National Housing Needs Register, are required to complete a housing subsidy application, which is finally approved by the Member of the Executive Council, MEC. The categories of prioritisation in respect of each Human Settlements development project are dictated by the socioeconomic conditions and demographic profiles of the targeted community that will benefit from the project.
We have identified our database and application process to have weaknesses and not enabling, ease of implementation of the prioritisation as per policy. But more importantly as well, it does not allow us more clearer monitoring of the policy implementation.
As a result, we took the decision and acknowledgement that we need one system of application that is transparent and easy to access by citizens, instead of two systems that we currently run. For example, we currently have a needs register, a person goes and applies at a municipality and that is put at the needs register, later is evaluated, and then put on Housing Subsidy System, HSS, after being approved.
We have acknowledged that we need one system that is transparent, that is easy to be accessed, that a citizen can also just punch in their number, whether it is a Member of Parliament who can go, punch in the number Identity Document, ID number and be able to see if this person has been approved and where is the person allocated in terms of the house.
So, what we acknowledge as well as the department is that the current HSS or platform is actually an effective tool for us to use for grant management and tracking of projects. So, it
has been good in that regard, but not for beneficiaries, and that’s why we took a decision that we have to change the beneficiary system and digitise our beneficiary system, which will be more easier for transparency, accountability, accessibility. But also, it will protect citizens and us from the process being manipulated.
We’ve seen in various municipalities after changes of elections, you find that the list of beneficiaries, changes. You have somebody who is sitting and saying, I’ve applied for a house for so long, I have not received. But also, because the qualifying criteria sometimes is misunderstood by various people, you find that people sit and think that they have been approved, only to find that they have not been approved.
So, we would want a system that is more interactive with citizens that they are able to receive, for example, a Short Message Service, SMS, that says you have applied, the following documents are missing, or you have applied you have been declined for the following reasons and that becomes something that can build confidence in our citizens.
House Chairperson, we are anticipating that we will deliver this digital platform before the end of the financial year. Thank you very.
Ms N NDONGENI: Hon Minister, thank you very much for your comprehensive response to this important question. As the hon Minister may be aware, there are also allegations of the defiance performance of some contractors. Some of whom are alleged to have received payments whilst they have not completed their work.
The question is therefore, in instances where such cases are being reported or detected, what is the plan of the department to recover the money for the work not completed? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: House Chairperson, the issue in terms of work that is linked to beneficiaries, what we have done. Let me just take members a bit step back.
Previously, you would find that when we allocated a person or a person is approved on the system, then the person is linked to a project. And overtime, because we had these unfinished projects, we then realised that it is important for us not to link beneficiaries to a project but finish the project and
then finalise what is within that local municipalities and that area a list of beneficiaries who have registered, we verify them at that time and make sure that they can be approved.
So, in cases where contractors and previously that members of the community were approved and linked and then we found that they were not actually allocated, and contractors have been scrupulous. We have gone back one, to acknowledge that it is not the wrongdoing of the citizens. Therefore, they need to be cleared within the system, verify that they have not benefited and therefore be allocated to a new project so that they can have a house.
With the contractors, as I said in the last question earlier question that then we report to them, to Special Investigating Unit, SIU, if they have been seen to have taken money from the state without completing the project, because the law enforcement agencies will be better placed for us to be able to deal with that. Thank you very much, hon Ndongeni. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, the original question speaks to child-headed households. Now have any houses been handed over
to children in child-headed households since the minimum age requirement is 18 years of age? And if the House was handed over to, let’s say a guardian of orphan child, what guarantee can be given that the house ends up with the child when he or she comes of age? And are there any measures in place to ensure that the guardian indeed, hands over the house to them when they are of eligible age? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you, hon Du Toit, I think these are some of the areas that we recognise as gaps in terms of our application process, because once you say you want to deal with child-headed households, but your policy speaks to an adult receiving a house, that is where the policy gap exists.
What we have been able to do, yes, we have handed. The policy does allow for Minister to give waiver in terms of approval processes and also the MECs as well can approve waivers where we find that there is a child-headed household below the age of 18 and therefore there needs to be approved. They are approved with a waiver by the MEC, and the children can be provided with a shelter. That is monitored, we link that with the Department of Social Development, we have done in
partnership with them to be able to work in terms of monitoring and supporting of those children.
In terms of guardians, we’ve not had much of difficulties with guardians in terms of being able to get a house after looking after the children, because if the house is given to a
child-headed household and it will be in the name of that child, not of the guardian if the application has come through. So, we've not had difficulties. But as I say, acknowledgement is that over time, as you know, our White Paper is the 1994 White Paper, that we are currently reviewing, and we would be before the end of this year, before December, have a 2023 White Paper policy approved by Cabinet for public consultation, so that at least before the end of financial year we can have ... by the time we start the new financial year, we have a new policy that we can work on, that will lead to changing of housing code, that will lead to changes of the Housing Act to becoming a Human Settlement Act. And all those issues that we have identified as gaps will be able to respond to them.
I mean, one of the other areas, as we talk about the most vulnerable, which we have identified as a gap in our policy, it’s women who are affected by gender-based violence, GBV, who
run away from the households. And in terms of our policy once you are a female and you were married, let’s say, for example, enjoined household or joint bond with your husband and registered in that house, when you apply with us, you do not qualify to be approved. We recognise it as a weakness and something that needs to be closed so that we can address the issue of GBV and allow for women to be able to find shelter after running away from a difficult environment and protect them so that they don’t stay in the houses where they end up being killed because they do not have a shelter.
And this is one of the areas that currently we have agreed that we will continue to do waivers, but we want to put mechanisms in place so that we protect the most vulnerable in our society. Thank you very much, hon member.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Good afternoon, Minister. I heard you saying that this waiting list is reliable and transparent, this is on a national level. Does it adhere to a standardised criterion? And then I would also like to know does every province have such a list which is transparent and reliable and is it accessible to anybody from the public? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Boshoff, good afternoon. No, I didn’t say that. The current system actually is not transparent and reliable I must be upfront and honest. The current system because sometimes you find it manually in municipalities, especially on beneficiaries, hence I said it’s open for manipulation.
We’ve seen it in incidences where when a ward councillor changes, then the list changes. Somebody comes and reports that I have been removed from the list. We’ve seen it when council changes or even when different political parties take over municipalities that gets to be changed.
What we envisaged with the new digital platform is for it to be able to address those old issues. Address the issue of potential manipulation, protect it, and make sure that it is transparent where all of us can punch in whether, as a Member of Parliament. A citizen says to you, I have been waiting for a house you can simply ask them for an ID number, you punch it in and then it can give you, that’s the system that we are looking to deliver before the financial year end.
And we do acknowledge upfront, that the current system and where we are sitting is not something that we can say, it is credible and hence we want to change it.
And that is what has led to a number of complaints and unhappiness from our citizens because as we go in on the ground, in community meetings, a lot of people with I have been applied since 1994, I don't know where I am on the list. When you check then you find that the person has not been approved or you find that the person actually does not even qualify for a house. That is why we want this interactive process that can assist even just to give answers and certainty to citizens, communication and they know where they are standing in terms of the housing list. Thank you very much.
Question 218:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon House Chairperson, I think I have a long response and I hope I can be able to cover it within the time. The following interventions have been made in the past 12 months to eradicate housing backlog. In the past 12 months, the department has delivered 30 824 service sites and 38 632 housing units through the financial intervention sub programme which includes individual
subsidies, credit linked and non-credit linked, and the housing finance linked individual housing subsidies.
These interventions have the IRDP phase one which includes planning and services, Integrated Residential Development Programme, IRDP, Phase 2 top structure completion, emergency housing programmes, people’s housing programmes and consolidation of subsidies.
The delivery was also done through the social and rental housing intervention. This intervention has institutional subsidies, community residential units and social housing. The delivery was also done through the rural housing intervention, the rural housing, communal rights, land rights and farm workers assistance programme as per our housing code, classification of our programme.
During the period 1 April to 31 August 2023, the department can safely say that we have delivered 6 072 service sites, as the hon member has asked, and 13 605 housing units through the interventions mentioned above. The relevant details as per provinces, as the hon member has asked, starting with the Eastern Cape, when we look in terms of our annual performance plans, you’ll see that in the Eastern Cape we have planned for
social and rental housing. We planned to build 8 542, and in terms of rural housing, as the province is more rural based, we have planned to build 847 657 houses. We currently monitoring that throughout the year and the report will be available at the end of the financial year.
In Free State we have planned 36 135 units for social and rental housing, and in terms of the intervention for incremental housing programmes it’s 679 176 houses. In Gauteng we have planned housing programmes which are 3 million houses. This is because we have mixed development sites in Gauteng. In KwaZulu-Natal, as a rural province as well, we have planned about 249 183 rural housing, social and rental we have 129 529 houses.
In terms of social and rental in Limpopo we have 45 078 planned and 632 985 for rural housing. In Mpumalanga 104 planned for social and rental and 61 000 units planned for rural housing. In the Northern Cape, in the current financial year, we didn’t plan any social housing and rental, but we are delivering what is currently on the ground and finalising that, and for rural communal land rights it is 601. In the North West, for social and rental we have 5 000 planned and for rural housing 435 000 delivered. In the Western Cape we
have planned incremental housing programme of almost
1,3 million houses. The details are available. We have various financial support budgeting for National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, enrolments, state asset maintenance retifications and title deeds. Thank you very much.
Mr M J MAGWALA: Greetings to Mama Ngwenya, greetings to the Minister and to the members. Minister, land and housing are recognised as a primary source of wealth, social state, power and security. However, in our country, black people currently live in shacks and substandard houses while whites continue to live in large, well serviced and high security suburbs, far from the poor townships. This department has done nothing to change the conditions of our people, instead, it sits with the housing backlog which has not been cleared.
In light of this, which time frame has been put in place to complete a clear housing block across the province? Minister, in some instances the backlog is done by local municipalities changing the low cost houses to pay to rent houses and limit our people from accessing these houses like what has happened in George and Mossel Bay municipalities in the Western Cape. As things stands, there is a huge problem looming in Mossel
Bay. I invite you, Minister, to come with me to Mossel Bay to go and clarify the huge confusion happening there so that our people can be assured their houses were not changed wrongly or given to wrong beneficiaries. Thank you very much. I don’t know who is speaking there, Mama Ngwenya, you must protect me.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Magwala, this department has done a lot. In fact, this government has done a lot. We have built almost 3,6 million houses in this country. We are a government that provides houses and subsidies to the less earning people we call the missing middle. The current policy and our programme in terms of housing does not exist anywhere in the world except in this country. It is therefore this government that has introduced the housing programmes that we have. Whether you are talking about first home financing for those who are working and need to be subsidised by this government to be able to afford loan repayments, it is this government and doesn’t exist anywhere else.
We also have the rental scheme where we subsidise people so they can stay closer to where they work. We provide for affordable rental which is a subsidy by this government. It is this government that provides a house that has a land, water, sanitation, electricity and a top structure to the value of
R350 000. No where in the world where a citizen can be given such a property and economic asset in their hands. No where else except this government and in this country.
When you say we have not done anything, you need to be specific where there are problems. If you are to refer to issues around where people live, for example, when we do an evaluation of the people who live in informal settlements, hon member, I have been saying this in public, majority of the people who are in informal settlements are not Breaking New Ground, BNG, or Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, qualifying people; these are people who fall within the gap market. These are people who earn a salary above R3 500 and therefore they qualify within the framework and the bracket of rent to buy or rental space or first home financing.
In light of this gap market, we have taken a decision as the department to address the problem not only for those who are first home buyers within our first home financing, but we are also looking at converting the National Housing Financing Scheme to be a human settlement development bank which will assist in closing the gap in terms of gap market. There is no such a thing as government has not done anything. Actually, go
and look globally, we are the leaders in terms of provision for a shelter for the most vulnerable in the world.
The issue of Mossel Bay I will have to look at. I have been to the Garden Route several times. You will have to specific, hon member, send me what the issues are there. I am not aware of what you are talking about. The citizens in terms of our programme, as I said, we do have in terms of rental space for those who qualify for rental and we provide for affordable rental space as government because we subsidise them. Not everybody who is in informal settlement actually qualifies by policy to be provided for BNG. That is why we must work together to stop and discourage illegal occupation of land.
All of us must stand tall because it denies us an opportunity to do proper planning, develop and provide quality housing and security and comfort for all. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Good afternoon, I would like to know, how does your policy position prevent double-dipping considering the domestic violence cases that you referred to earlier on and that individuals from one household, for example, husband and wife, don’t get two different houses in either the same or even different provinces? We understand that in the case of
domestic violence it is different, but excluding that, the rest of that. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon member, we have found in many instances where people do come to us and tell us that they have not qualified and they could not understand why they have not qualified. The system when you have for example ... I always say this when I go to rural areas and that is where you are able to test whether there’s potential of double-dipping. In a rural area you would find a male person saying that I have applied for a house and was told that I do not qualify.
When you look at it you find that because they come from rural area, their parents would have registered their homestead with their firstborn child in the family. Even though it is not his own property but the family, but because they have registered it in his name, when he comes to apply to us then we find that he does not qualify because he is a previous owner of a property. So, it is those instances and examples that tells us that the system does work to protect from double-dipping.
We also have those, as I said, women who have applied saying I was married before and I am divorced now and therefore I am applying for an RDP house and the system says I do not qualify because I have previously owned a property. It is those
instances that we are able to see that the system is able to protect from double-dipping.
When you do find instances where something wrong like somebody who owns a house and then owns an RDP it is pure manipulation of the system and human beings that have been able to do that and not because the system does allow. Someone will go and lie to the system and complete wrong forms and it is only when you verify later that you find that actually the people did not complete the right forms. That is why we believe that this digitisation system will assist us because, for example, those who have a salary will be linked and we can be able to pick up with UIF that you actually have a salary and paying Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, and as you submit the documents it will be able to tell us if there has been activities in terms of provision of that, but also provision of bank statements will make some of the level of what needs to be submitted so that we can trace if the person has not been working or does not have an income that is sustainable that then cheats the system. So it is those things that would work and we do believe that with the advent of technology today it will help us to be able to protect us as government and state funds from all those manipulations. Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Minister, in relation to eradicating the housing backlog we are all aware that factors such as rising construction costs, slow release of land and insufficient grant funding are compromising the department’s ability to deliver new housing units as per the pace and scale needed. Therefore, I would like to know what plans the department has in place to implement public and private partnership to eradicate the housing backlog? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Radebe, definitely the issue of high costs of building continues to be a sore sight for our work and that is why one of the things that we have done and I have done since I arrived in the portfolio was to annually increase the quantum so that it becomes something that contractors will be able to bear and they do not work without making any sense of profit. Because the margins of building an RDP or BNG are very low, you have to be able to protect the contractors for them not to leave site because some of them left sites and handed over because they were saying the projects are nolonger viable and that is why we had to consistently increase in terms of the quantums annually so that the projects are viable.
Secondly, in terms of the grant funding we do agree that it is also limited so we can do part of what we can. What we have done currently, we have engaged with Development Bank of South Africa, DBSA, the Infrastructure SA and we are utilising the National Housing Finance Corporation, NHFC, to also source other funding partners for us to be able to expand in the gap market and the rental space. We believe that will help a lot in terms of expanding for the housing needs.
We also believe that majority of the people, for example, who are in the metros or urban areas and intermediary cities are not necessarily people that are the same who would need an RDP, but some of them are looking for apartments because they are looking for economic opportunities to be able to work.
That is why we are working with Public Works to identify abandoned buildings in inner cities and convert them into residential areas and repurpose them for rental stock and gap markert. They will be able to assist.
The partnership with private sector comes critical here. We have called for the National Treasury to amend the public- private partnership framework to enable for the process to move quicker. Currently, with that restriction or constraint it takes longer to be able to do public-private partnership
and it is a constrain. So we consistently engage and we are looking forward to Parliament finalising the Public Procurement Bill for us to be able to implement the work we are looking forward to. There is quite a lot of private sector that is looking forward to working with us both in the country and globally and we do believe that with that we will be able to provide, especially in the urban areas and secondary cities or intermediary cities as we see them. Thank you very much, House Chair.
Mr I NTSUBE: House Chair, I am taking the question. Let me appreciate the presence of the Minister here. According to various imperical evidence, Minister, lack of access to residential sites is one of the critical pull factors against the government’s efforts to address housing backlogs in this country. As this study further points out, many people only require service residential sites to build their own houses, but this is not possible, not by the government’s choice but due to the fundamental historical question of land dispossession in South Africa. In this regard, what are the plans in place by the department in collaboration with the Department of Public Works and other sector departments and private sector to accelerate the transition of the land to our people? Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon House Chairperson, thank you to the hon member for that. Definitely, the issue of apartheid spatial planning remains with us and that is why you will find majority of the people staying in the outskirts far away from economic opportunities and spending almost 70% of their income on transport.
The work that we have started with Public Works is quite important because it helps us to identify properties closer to where people work so that they don’t travel. Currently we are working with Public Works to finalise the transfer of about
11 000 hectares of land, initially it was 14 000 and has been reduced to 11 000 because others were found not to be suitable. So, 11 000 across the country transferred to Human Settlement. So far 2600 have been transferred to Human Settlement and we are at various phases of working. We applied to municipalities for planning purposes so that they can be declared and rezoned for us to be able to develop various properties.
Secondly, the work that we have started with the Department of Public Works is to do an audit of all the buildings in the inner cities in terms of ownership across the country, at least starting with the eight metros, and out of those we will
identify those buildings. Those owned by government will be the first ones that we target to repurpose and also ensure that we can do public-private partnerships with entrepreneurs that can run them either for rental or be able to participate in the economy as part of property developers.
We do look at this as part of the critical areas. For example, if you look within the City of Cape Town, where we are now, majority of the people come into the inner city to work by trains and taxis. If you talk to the people who are at Waterfront, during the time of the taxi strike, almost no shop at the Waterfront or even services had people to work because they are travelling. So, if they are closer to where they work, whether there is a strike or an activity that prohibits them from going to work, they will be able to go because they will be a walking distance from where they are working. That is the critical work that we have to do in terms of doing away with the apartheid legacy so that we don’t continue to find black people in one area, coloured people in one area and white people in one area. We have to integrate and promote the integration of society and in that we will be reducing inequality in our country. Thank you very much.
Question 215:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Smit, we took the decision to conduct lifestyle audits on housing inspectors following complaints by members of our community. We believe that the integrity of our work must be protected, but more importantly, citizens who are beneficiaries of our services must be protected and be assured that they will receive quality services. The lifestyle audits of the National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, inspectors commenced on 20 September 2023. It is a process that will take three months, meaning it will end November 2023. As we speak, the outcomes of the audit are not yet available for us and once they are available, we will process them and act on them.
I must highlight further, hon member, that we believe that lifestyle audits alone are not enough to ensure that the NHBRC fulfils its mandate, hence the decision has been taken as well by the board and executive to do an evaluation of the skills of all the inspectors to ensure that they have the required skills and experience to fulfil their mandate, especially in this advent. Where we are, you will find that some of the people have been employed long time ago. They’ve been there in the system but have not been upgrading their qualifications and are not within the time that we do. We know that today we
have such alternative building technologies that inspectors will have to be fit to be able to understand how to inspect, how to evaluate the work and also be able to protect citizens in that regard.
So, this is the work that we do and will continue to do. We are looking forward to those and I am grateful that when we propose the lifestyle audit to the board, they were not resistant. I wrote them a letter to request for an audit of all their inspectors, and they responded and started the process. I am looking forward to the outcome and the report. I can assure you, hon member, that should any of our members be found to be wanting, there will be consequences in that regard. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon House Chair. Firstly, we as the DA must welcome these lifestyle audits. I think it is long overdue. As you said that there will be consequences, do you know of any consequences so far and if not, what will these consequences be? Will you also ensure that these individuals will not be redeployed to other positions and other departments? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Smit. There is no feasibility for redeployment. They are employed in terms of their contract. Because we’ve had incidences where there have been allegations of corruption that you find an inspector has been taking money on buildings. What we will do when the lifestyle audit comes, we will link the results of their lifestyle to the projects that they have been able to oversee. They become a trigger for us to be able to see if a certain individual has had excess of cash that they were supposed not to have, or whether they have properties or assets that they are not supposed to have in their hands. Therefore, that will lead us to what we can assess. There have been instances where there have been various allegations against particular inspectors that was looked into. Others jump ship and leave the portfolio completely without coming to us. And you know, by law, once the person resigns from his job, you have no jurisdiction over them, unless there is evidence of criminality that will entitle you to go to the police.
So, most of the time, at that time they resign, you do not have evidence of criminality. But it could be something around employment conduct that can enable you to do a disciplinary committee. Once they leave, you can’t do anything beyond that.
So, that is what we are intending to look at. We believe that in this work that we are doing, we will encourage authentic work and we will encourage issues of credibility. They will start paying attention to what they themselves do as inspectors. But also, we are trying to recruit even people of high quality morals and ethics. I have said to the entity and the board that the vision of this government is for NHBRC to be a centre of excellence. If it is to be a centre of excellence, it must recruit qualified people - people of high ethical standards that will be able to assist us.
Again, I am going back to the Consumer Protection Bill which also tightens up work even on the inspectors themselves in terms of the work. But again, as I always emphasise, the problem we have most of the time is that we don’t get to know about this thing. So, we want to consistently say, through partnership with our communities where they see these wrongdoings, it will help if they report it so that we can deal with them. It is good if I can receive a report that says that inspector so and so, in this area, have done the following. Then, you are able to tangibly deal with the matter by going to investigate in that area and deal with that individual. There are quite a lot of our inspectors who are good, who have done credible work and who are no-nonsense
takers. They have stopped certain projects before completion and sometimes their life gets threatened and we have to protect them. So, we’ve got to be able to separate the bad apples from the good apples so that our system can be protected in terms of integrity. Thank you very much.
Mr M J MAGWALA: Thank you, Mama Ngwenya. Following the audits, Minister, what intervention will the Minister take to root out corrupt building inspectors and contractors so as to preserve finances and resources? What action will the Minister take against developers who buy their way with building inspectors? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Chair. As I said, what we do where we find that there has been wrongdoing, we report them to law enforcement agencies. We have handed several files to the Special Investigating Unit, SIU. As early as two months ago, I handed a file of several projects in the Free State that had wrongdoings by contractors and they are in the hands of law enforcement agencies – that is as far as we want to go.
I would not want to spend my time investigating as the Minister of Human Settlements, I want to spend my time
focusing on delivering houses and doing human settlements portfolio monitoring on the project and ensuring that beneficiaries are receiving what is due for them. So, that is what we do when we find areas of weaknesses, when we find allegations of corruption, when we find allegations or even activities that are not suitable for what we do and compromises our integrity and credibility - we report them.
There are several cases. And as I can say, some of the cases are already before the courts and people are facing consequences. So, we’re not talking about something that we are going to do, we’re talking about something that we are doing in this portfolio. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, we know the visa process that followed - first the lifestyle reviews and lifestyle investigations and that the third portion is the lifestyle audits. I want to know whose responsibility is to ensure that the ethics officers do their work in ensuring that lifestyle reviews are conducted by verifying information submitted to the e-disclosure system and what room for error is allowed? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon member. The work that is being done is done at various levels.
For example, the board annually discloses their financials to the Minister. We verify and if there are issues of concern, we call the board member to explain and if there is a need, a board member can either recuse themselves from the board or actually remove themselves from a particular project or work that they are doing. We’ve heard those incidents that we have dealt with.
At an entity level, it’s the board that oversees the disclosures of the executives and also the executives that will see the entirety led by the CEO of that state-owned entity will oversee the disclosures of the entirety of the staff. It is not only the ethics officer that has a duty, but the accounting officer in every area has a duty to be able to fulfil that mandate. I myself as the executive authority, what I do annually when we do verification like we’ve been doing, we hold meetings with the board to account for their annual work and part of what they have to account to is on issues of disclosure and how they have been able to deal with them. In that way, we play an oversight role from my side as the executive authority to ensure that that work is not undermined but continues to be happening and with integrity that it is supposed to. Thank you very much.
Ms N NDONGENI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I rise on behalf of the ANC to welcome the initiative of the department on lifestyle audits, which is in line with one of the President’s state of the nation address’ injunction and the 55th ANC national conference resolution in the fight against corruption. As the Minister has pointed out, lifestyle audits alone are not sufficient in the fight against corruption in isolation from other critical anticorruption measures like whistle-blowing and the strengthening of internal controls and risk measures. In this regard, can the hon Minister take our people into confidence about our key anticorruption measures in the department and the successes and challenges in the fight against corruption. Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Ndongeni. Hon Chair, indeed it is work in progress; it continues. It is not something that I can safely say I have achieved it. It’s one that has to consistently as we work, find loopholes and close in terms of management. We have received several times whistle-blowers that would report on a matter. If it is a matter that relates to the entity, what I do is refer it to the board so that they can do the investigations and therefore provide a report within a particular time.
We’ve had incidents, for example in Community Schemes Ombud Services, CSOS, we’ve had incidences in Social Housing Regulatory Authority, SHRA, we’ve had incidences in the Property Practitioners Regulatory Authority, PPRA, and all those were dealt with. We investigated the boards. We’ve investigated that in instances where I would receive reports, sometimes they jump ship and resign. Again, we’ve had instances where there has been disciplinary committee processes and people actually being dismissed in the portfolio.
So, there is seriousness in terms of dealing with issues of corruption. But when we receive whistle-blowing information, we do not take it for granted. We have to evaluate it and look at it. Yes, sometimes you find frivolous ones. For example, you would find that when a lot of people are being disciplined or are asked to account in the entity, they do not want and then they do whistle-blowing. You’ve got to go and look at it and evaluate but also, you still must have mechanisms of responding. For example, in the National Housing Finance Corporation, NHFC, what we did is that we appointed an external service provider where people will report to - which is registered. If it is escalated to me immediately, the email is sent directly to me from the service provider as anonymous.
I am not able to see who had done the whistle-blowing and then I am required to respond within a particular time.
Those are the systems that we have put in place and we will continue to strengthen our work around whistle-blowing and the protection of whistle-blowers, and also ensuring that wrongdoings do not happen. And I can safely say, hon member, with this work and taking this work seriously, we’ve seen quite an improvement in terms of stability of the portfolio.
We have seen a reduction of whistle-blowing and an improvement of ethical conduct and also just accountability on the portfolio in various entities and in the department.
I remain grateful for the boards that exist now in these entities because they have been taking their work seriously and they do not have a no-nonsense approach around corruption. They investigate and do not deal with issues with fear. They go and deal with matters and they actually institute consequence management. There are various examples that we can give. That is why we are confident that over time we will start to see a positive output in terms of the work that we have to do and in terms of targets, the quality of spending that is starting to improve and also the confidence of the people in the work that we do because they are starting to
believe that we are genuine about what we are doing and about the mandate we have been given. Thank you very much.
Question 210:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: The human settlements sector utilises the concept of upgrading as opposed to eradication, and I will explain. The process of eradicating would imply that the state must get rid of all informal settlements completely, whereas the act of eradicating may not be easy, given that the state must operate within the available resources but within the prescripts of the Constitution. Currently, the resources allocated are not sufficient to eradicate what we currently have as all
2 700 informal settlements across the country. I say counting because each time we have challenges of new informal settlements emerging.
Section 26 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa provides for a progressive realisation of the rights of adequate housing. The Upgrading of Informal Settlement Programme is supported through grants which are given to provinces and metros to be the implementers of this programme, and as the national department each year we approve the business plans, then monitor the grant spending and the
project implementation. The department has a policy with clear goals on the upgrading of informal settlements, whose key objective is to facilitate a structured incremental upgrading of informal settlements. Additionally, the programme seeks to promote the development of a healthy and secure living environment by facilitating the provision of affordable and sustainable basic municipal engineering infrastructure to communities via a three-phased approach. We took a decision that as part of the process where there are informal settlements, the first point will be to provide human rights services, such as, mainly temporary water services and sanitation. Once the studies have been conducted, which we will now call phase two ... suitability of land, and therefore once it is approved that it is suitable for land and approval by municipalities has been done, then we move to put in permanent services. This is bulk reticulation. In this ... [Inaudible.] ... we put in water, sanitation, electricity and roads. In some instances, this is where the state ends and citizens later build for themselves and in other instances we then move in as government to phase three to provide for permanent structures of our houses in the communities.
Our experience is that the majority of the land where these informal settlements are located are not suitable for human
settlements and therefore necessitates the process of identification of suitable and purchased land. As we are all aware, most of the time in terms of informal settlements, there is no availability of land to relocate those citizens to and the land that gets found is sometimes far away from where the people are located at that point. Many times this then necessitates provinces and municipalities to appoint social facilitators to engage communities so that an agreement is reached as to where they will relocate to, which most of the time takes long because sometimes this is marred by either communities rejecting the identified land or resettlement land or the receiving communities saying not in my neighbourhood.
So, these are some of the challenges in terms of the upgrading of informal settlements.
However, just to indicate, that as part of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, the department has targeted the upgrading of 1 500 informal settlements to phase three and is shared nationally across all nine provinces. Thank you very much.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Hon Minister, as you have correctly pointed out, the majority of the land where informal settlements are located is not suitable for human settlements and some, if not most, cannot ensure severe weather conditions, thus exposing
our people to ... [Inaudible.] ... human disasters. Hon Minister, would you agree that, despite this persistence of the landless and homeless ... as one of the burning legitimate grievances of our people, illegally occupying land has begun to be used as a political plot to undermine the rule of law for narrow political gains?
Against this background, hon Minister, has the department considered a national policy framework that seeks to mitigate against the hazardous proliferation of informal settlements that puts our people's lives in danger? If not, Minister, why not, and if so, what are the relevant details? Thanks also for your elaborate answer that you have given to this House. I thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Mthethwa. Yes, we do agree with you in terms of the challenges that exist, firstly, in terms of homelessness and landlessness. However, as you say, the issue of the illegal occupation of land is something that shouldn't happen, and I say this because most of the time when you go into these areas, somebody has taken money from these vulnerable communities to be able to cut the sites. You hear of stories where somebody has taken 5 000 or 2 000 from communities and
they leave them vulnerable in areas where their lives are in danger. We've seen in the disasters that the majority of the people who either lost their lives or lost their belongings were people who were in informal settlements because where they were located it was either wetlands or areas where they were closer to rivers and they were vulnerable to disasters. So, that is why we all as law-abiding citizens and people who do not love anarchy in their country must also protect the state and protect ... that we must have law within the country
... that illegal occupation of land must not be promoted. We see even in some instances ... I can name quite a number of informal settlements ... when you arrive there is a landlord who collects money from these residents, taking advantage of these vulnerable people, not because they do not have money. They have money but somebody has decided to go and take a piece of land from a municipality and taken all of it.
Now, we have had a conversation, both in the provinces, at Minmec and also with municipalities ... and a call by municipalities was whether I can assist in leading the conversation with the Department of Agriculture and Land Reform for the review of the Promotion of Access to Information Act because, firstly, yes, its intention is good in protecting ... the illegal or forceful removal of people
... in acknowledging the past where we come from, but also what we used to see in the farm areas where people who are farm dwellers would be illegally evicted without an alternative place. However, now we see that the challenge with municipalities in terms of this land is that people occupy this land and if municipalities do not see these occupiers within 48 hours in order to remove them, then they have an obligation to provide alternative accommodation. However, even in the private sector when you evict people after 48 hours, a municipality has an obligation to provide alternative accommodation. These are the weaknesses and we do believe that if we can review the Promotion of Access to Information Act and also have a conversation with various stakeholders, we will be able to review this thing. We will be able to address the challenges. As the Minister of Human Settlements, I have an intention to convene a two-day summit with the nongovernmental organisation, NGO, sector that plays a specific role in human settlements, to particularly address these areas and see how best we can find solutions, because it is out of their court action where we have seen quite a lot of trends that changed our landscape in terms of policy and the laws, and we do believe that working with them we will be able to find solutions. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Minister, the apartheid government was deliberate in its spatial planning. In the main, the eradication of informal settlements would also mean that there are certain areas that should not be exempted from establishing affordable housing that is closer to economic activities. Does the department consider all areas and neighbourhoods where to build housing and what are the limits? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon member. As you heard earlier on, I spoke about the integration of society. Our belief as this government is that we should not continue with the apartheid spatial landscape. We must be able to ensure that we integrate people in terms of their colour, their race, their gender and their income. There is nothing ... For example, I had a conversation with ... one of the estates. I asked them, as you have built this big estate, where are your workers staying because you have made them stay in informal settlements. They have ... [Inaudible.] ... You've not made affordable housing ... closer to this upmarket estate. Those conversations will continue with property developers and they do acknowledge. Many of them have actually started to ensure that they construct mixed developments. They provide for that area and these are areas that we believe that
we'll be able to have public-private partnerships, PPPs. As they develop for private ownership, we come in, we do affordable ... with them in partnership and save in terms of the costs. So, that is what we want. We don't think that there is an area in this country where we can't build affordable housing. We don't believe that there is an area where we should continue to segregate people, whether by income or by their race or gender. We do believe that what we have is an integrated development that we want to see and that's why you would see what we call mega projects. You will find bonded houses, Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses, rental flats. They are all at one place and that is what we are advocating. We will continue to do ... in terms of ownership.
It becomes difficult where you do not have land. So we buy, and sometimes the buying of this land becomes very expensive because even our own people who are supposed to be progressive are not progressive towards government. They sell the land for R30. When it’s government they want R90. I am just making an example. Therefore, it makes it difficult to access those particular areas. However, we've been able to say as well that where there is a need, expropriation does apply. However, as you know that by law, when the Minister of Human Settlements
has to expropriate without compensation or with compensation, he or she must justify the process as to why it is being done. It does allow for that; however, you must justify that you do not have any land that is available by the state but also that there isn't any other alternative except for me to be able to expropriate. Those are some of the things that we are broadly looking into. However, the first point which we will address is the taking over of inner-city buildings because we do believe that it will go a long way in integrating society and doing away with the current apartheid legacy of spatial development. Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, as we all know, informal settlements are mostly established on land that is unused or otherwise marginal. It seems that what protects land from occupation is not a title deed but what is happening on it. Land that is being actively used is very rarely occupied.
Therefore, please briefly detail the process the government follows in acquiring vacant land for housing purposes, especially in relation to the turnaround time period, until construction can take place. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon Hadebe. In the case of illegal land occupation, there are very
few instances where you find that suitable land is occupied. I think I have one incident in Mangaung. The site is completed. We went there and we found that it was illegally occupied, but it was for human settlements. The municipality finished the process, put in bulk infrastructure but did not allocate and we therefore said to them that they needed to allocate and verify beneficiaries against those who are there so that we complete ... However, that is one in a million cases. Almost all or the majority of our informal settlements that we are currently assessing and developing are on land that is not suitable. That's what makes it difficult. So, it's not ...
They see our people ... and that's why we've been doing a lot of consumer education but they see with their eyes that this is land that is ... suitable and we've been trying to explain to communities that they might think that this land is suitable, but only to find that when geotechnical ... are done, the land is not suitable whereby it is either a wetland or dolomitic area, and therefore over time compromises the lives of citizens.
However, we have had incidences where we have gone to communities, talked to them and said that they are not on suitable land, and therefore they need to move and they would refuse. That's why I have sometimes been seen as a bit
heartless because we've had to say to those communities that they were going to sign indemnity forms that protects the state because I have an obligation to protect the state should anything happen to them. Therefore, they would know that they were responsible. One incident ... We had a conversation with about 16 informal settlements in the Western Cape. One of them was a COVID-19 informal settlement. We had received a report and together with wetland ... We had received a report that those informal settlements were in wetlands and people were literally drowning when it rained. We engaged the community.
They have been refusing to move and when the city in the province wanted to move them as well, they refused.
Similarly, in KwaZulu-Natal, I had such an incident in other areas. We then went and told the communities that they were going to sign indemnity ... In Mossel Bay, we got them to sign. In George, we got them to sign. After five days when one house collapsed they were able to move. In KwaZulu-Natal, one community was living in the river. We asked them to sign indemnity forms. When they saw that we were serious about getting them to sign indemnity forms, they moved. So, it is those instances and various experiences that we have in terms of the illegal occupation of land. It is not a one-size-fits- all ... and we continue to work on them. As we say, we
identify them, we go in and we do believe that working in partnership, one of the things going forward we want to do is to work with the SA Space Agency, Sansa, a space agency that will be able to help us with the technology. We work with Google. We are approaching all of them to help us with the geo-mapping of these informal settlements upfront so as to be
able to utilise technology to tell us how many there are, when we can move, where we can move and to fast-track the process of identification.
The last point is that we do need improvements in municipalities because what becomes a headache is the planning process in municipalities that does not get completed. It takes forever for us to get sites and the land approved in terms of the plans that we want to implement for building human settlements. Thanks, Chair.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Minister, thank you very much. I think you have touched a little bit on my question I am going to ask now, but I'd like you to expand a little bit on it. So, illegal land invasions and land grabs are obviously out of control at the moment, and it is coupled with actions by some traditional leaders in their respective areas, where they are setting up new stands without any regard for bulk
infrastructure from local municipalities. So, my question to you would be the following. How would the department address this matter in a Human Settlements policy framework? In your previous answer you set out quite a few items that you are implementing but how will you ... Are all of those things in a policy framework? Is there a policy in place, and if not, will a policy be implemented? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, hon member. Yes, currently other issues are already in the policy that we are operating ... but in terms of the gaps that we have been able to identify, the 2023 White Paper does close those gaps, as we will be going into the public domain. I hope members will look into it for public consultation after Cabinet approval.
Hon member, the issue that I want to have extensive conversation around is the one concerning municipalities. When there is an illegal occupation of land, municipalities must evict. Now, what comes back is that municipalities say they do not have capacity, especially those that are not metros because they do not have a law enforcement capacity within them. So, that is why the review of the Promotion of Access to
Information Act will help to close that gap. So, that is the policy ... the other policy area that will have to do ...
You reflected on the issue of traditional leaders. I have been engaging with traditional leaders. Remember, in terms of our work, we have now identified the issue of permission to occupy as one of the areas that we recognise for the provision of human settlements. However, as you know, in traditional communities where it's communal land under a traditional leader, part of the issue is that it is within their land they can allocate. What we are looking at is a partnership between ourselves, them and the municipalities to be able to do proper spatial planning, work with them to identify the areas that they can't identify or cut for people. Minister Motsoaledi, who has also convened another meeting with traditional leaders, will, like Human Settlements, expand the partnerships that we want. Through the Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, on Land Reform that is chaired by the Deputy President, we've been working together to have this conversation in order to finalise it. We are hoping that as we review the policy, this area, as well as in the rural areas, will be closed so that we work in partnership. The traditional leaders themselves have acknowledged that they need our support and our help in supporting them to ensure that where they put their people,
they will not be in danger. I don't think they want to see people drowning. They want to see its lack of capacity, lack of facilities and lack of skills that are required which are available within government and we do have those. We have committed to working with them to ensure that we are able to do this.
In traditional and rural communities, there isn't much illegal land occupation. You find that in many secondary cities or what we call intermediate cities such as Polokwane or Kimberley. They are not in metros like your Rustenburg or those ... Mbombela. We call them secondary cities or urban areas and your metros. So, that is where we need to pay attention in closing down on the illegal occupation of land.
Those are mainly driven by the migration of people from the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region into the country, but also ... from rural areas into urban areas seeking economic opportunities. That's why we are addressing it through this programme because we do believe that it will assist us holistically in being able to deal with that. So, the White Paper policy overhauls what we have not been doing correctly and addresses those, including around technologies but ... new trends, looking at other countries and how they are doing it. It closes all those gaps as we do. You would
know that ... [Inaudible.] ... policy from 1994 has been old. Now we are doing the review, and we are almost done going to Cabinet for approval. Thank you very much, hon member.
Question 205:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, allow me first to congratulate the 2023 MTN champions, Orlando Pirates. Also allow me to congratulate a South African for his outstanding contribution to making history this past weekend, Nkosinathi Maphumulo, affectionately known as DJ Black Coffee. The provision of resources by the sports federation is influenced primarily by sponsorship, which is often biased towards male sports.
A recent study about the accessibility of funds for women in South African sports highlighted that sponsorships mostly flowed to dominant male team sports such as rugby, cricket and football as they have highly established professional male leagues. The underrepresentation of women in the public media is argued from this point of view that traditional male sports have a large fan base. About 99% of sponsorships and endorsements go to male athletes in sports while women earn relatively less than men for work of equal value.
Men benefit from professional sports leagues and being able to follow sporting careers compared to women who must find similar opportunities if they can secure international contracts. Remuneration disputes of Banyana Banyana brought this matter to the fore and the public. The investment in women's football is meant to give the federation a head start to build its brand to ensure investment by the corporate sector. This has started to realise benefits with football federations and the football women's league securing sponsorship for the league such as Hollywoodbets. We believe this support has contributed significantly to the successes experienced by Mamelodi Sundowns ladies and now Banyana Banyana.
The Ministry has started a process of developing a woman in sport policy in consultation with key stakeholders, in particular the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc and other national federations. The policy, which is undergoing the next consultative phase of analysing the implementation and costing plans, calls for a concerted effort by the stakeholders to lobby for equality in media exposure and actions. To this end, we call on all South Africans to make sure that we participate as relevant stakeholders to professionalise the women's league and not only for
federations to adhere to the amendments of the Employment Equity Act, which guides legal redress to equal pay for work of equal value. In this instance, the department will continue to make sure that we continue to support women in sports beyond remuneration but to deal with issues of gender and the gap that still exists. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms N NDONGENI: Enkosi, Sihlalo, [Thank you, Chair] hon Minister, as you have correctly pointed out, the disparities between the salaries and benefits of male and female professional soccer players have been recently captured by the national news headlines and we appreciate the efforts of the department in terms of the initiatives that you have tabled.
Based on the engagement with the Professional Soccer League and the corporate sponsors, what is the level of commitment and readiness to equalise gender parity in professional sports and soccer in particular? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Ndongeni, we have recently been engaging federations and the corporate sector, particularly corporate South Africa to make sure that we outline not only do we deal with issues of gender parity, but to deal with issues of the mindset and the issues of leadership. I have had engagements with federations and we
think those engagements are starting to bear fruit. Already we have Cricket South Africa that have launched their Women's League. It is possible that other federations soon will launch their women's leagues, and I think the issue of parity, therefore, is important to understand in the context of the policy of the governing party but as well of the government that if it means we must enact a law to enforce parity, we shall do so, hon member. Thank you very much.
Mr D R RYDER: Acting House Chair ... [Interjections.]
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): It’s called Officer Presiding in terms of the Rules.
Mr D R RYDER: It gets confusing, sir. Good, Mr Minister, the ANC's cadre that has been deployed to the SA Football Association, Safa, is Danny Jordaan, and he had some terrible things to say during the brave stand that was recently taken by Banyana Banyana. Amongst other things he blamed the players for poor timing, but, Minister, after Banyana Banyana's Africa Cup of Nations win last year, 2022, President Ramaphosa himself promised to bring equality to the pay for our sporting heroes, regardless of the agenda. Now, can you tell us that
Jordaan missed the memo or is he just continuing his abusive relationship with women? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: The commitment as made by His Excellency the President, that commitment continues to be implemented. The point we make is that it goes beyond just remuneration. You are dealing with the mindset of issues of gender parity in the country. That decision, an announcement by the President, as you can test now. About your views about Danny Jordaan, I will not answer them now because I don't think they are relevant to the question and the debate.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): I think, hon Ryder, you said something that refers to a person who is not a member of this House. Members who are not members of this House who cannot protect themselves should be protected. You said something about a woman referring to Dr Jordaan. So, please, we should refrain from saying such things. We move now to the next follow-up question from the hon Ms N Tafeni from the EFF. Hon Tafeni? Hon Moletsane, are you ready to take the question?
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Yes, Chair of the session. Minister, you have partly covered me concerning women's soccer, but will this change also be extended to other sporting codes such as netball and others? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you that I have covered you, hon member. Yes, it will be extended to other sporting codes as well. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you so much, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, it is a shame that your department intends to make plans that will ensure equality between women and men in professional soccer decades after the enactment of the Constitution which has enshrined equality to all in section 9. Despite this, we still welcome these intentions. Minister, could you bring the country into your confidence as to the timeframe and the guaranteed implementation of these collaboration plans and whether there will be legislative requirements on salary differences between genders? Thank you, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Radebe, it is a
disgrace if you don't do anything about it. What is important is that yes, something was not done, but now, led by the
President, we are doing something. In collaboration with a number of stakeholders, we are establishing a policy, for example, on women in sports which is in phase two of consultation and as soon as the policy is adopted you will see the ball will be rolling. Thank you very much.
Question 211:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: The SA Football
Association, Safa provided a 2010 World Cup Legacy close-out report which provided a financial overview. That financial overview, including, amongst others, how the money was spent. For an example, local and African nongovernmental organisations using football as a vehicle for social change, the organisation used different intervention programmes to develop and engage healthy lifestyles among its programme participants. This focused, among others, to HIV and Aids awareness through testing and referrals for treatment, women and youth entrepreneurs training, after-school and extra classes.
A total of 40 organisations were funded since 2012, comprising of 20 South African-based nongovernmental organisations and 20 implementing partners. According to the close-out report referred to above, the beneficiaries can be characterized as
follows: 52 Safa regions through grants, coaching development, referees’ development, administrator development, local football association through grants, Kwa-Zulu Natal Academy, national youth team preparations and participation, legacy bags, bursaries for school and football administrators and so on.
The report also indicates that these are the areas that benefited from the legacy project: The Mount Ayliff sports grounds in the Eastern Cape, the Edinburgh’s sports ground in Free State, Isiqalo Primary School in Gauteng, Hluhluwe Sports field in Kwa-Zulu Natal, John First in Limpopo, Volksrust Showgrounds in Mpumalanga, Montshioa Stadium in North West as well as Beaufort West Sports Complex in the Western Cape.
Thank you very much, Chairperson very much.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu M R BARA: Masibulele, Sihlalo, enkosi kakhulu.
English:
Minister, thank you for your response. The trustees, including veteran soccer administrator Ria Ledwaba and former Safa President Elvis Shishana are demanding answers from the scheme, this hierarchy regarding outstanding documentation on
how the 2010 Fifa World Cup Legacy Trust Fund or finances were handled by Safa. Now, Minister the information in the public domain points to shocking abuse of money meant for developing our soccer players. At worst this is corruption and embezzlement at best it is pathetic mismanagement. When will you suspend the leadership at Safa who were represented on the board of trustees to allow for a full investigation? Thank you, Minister Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Bara, as you are aware, that is a constitutional democracy. We cannot, based on allegations which have not been provided before me, with evidence or people opening a criminal case of any wrongdoing, I cannot just act willy-nilly. As the Minister of Sport, no evidence has been presented before me by anybody to say, since 2010 these are the allegations. I hear, I read, I watch like you. I cannot act based on that. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Chair, hon Minister I hear what you say about the allegations that were made, but what measures will be put in place to prevent similar alleged mismanagement of funds in future and to ensure that if funds are mismanaged, that it will be recouped? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Again, I cannot
establish measures on the basis of hearsay and I think there are enough mechanisms to make sure that does not happen, but it cannot be on the basis of hearsay. I think if there is any allegation that the member refers to, let those allegations be brought before the relevant stakeholders. Thank you very much.
Question 206:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: It is important to first emphasise ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Sorry. Hon Motsamai, I am sorry on question 211 by moving to the next question. [Laughter.]
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMIDLALO, UBUCIKO NAMASIKO: Umali wendlela.
English:
It is important to first emphasise that provision and maintenance of sports facilities in the country is a mandate that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa assigned to local government. It is for this reason that funding programmes of this mandate, which are Municipal Infrastructure
Grant, MIG, and Urban Settlements Development Grant are directly allocated to municipalities, to amongst others, build and refurbish sports infrastructure. However, the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture has also noted the concern of lack of supply and maintenance of sports facilities, notwithstanding these budget provisions and as a result intervened through securing a ring-fenced portion of the allocation of sports infrastructure within MIG to be allocated as a way of ensuring provision and the refurbishment of sports facilities.
Allocations through Department of Sport, Arts and Culture ring-fenced MIG are done annually in collaboration with both the provincial government, Department of Sport, provincial departments of Cogta and municipalities. Projects funded through this process unidentified by municipalities themselves and are part of their Integrated Development Plan, IDPs, and endorsed by provincial departments of sport. Some of new construction projects are either upgrading or refurbishment.
In essence, there is such partnership between Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, provinces and municipalities to not only supply, build and upgrade facilities, but the refurbishment of sport facilities. Thank you very much.
Mr I NTSUBE: Thanks to the Minister. As you may be aware Minister, that the neglect of these facilities continues to occupy the national headlines, with some regarded as white elephants despite huge financial investments made by the state. This raises fundamental questions about capacity of local government to maintain these facilities. In this regard, has the department not considered the development of the national uniform model of maintaining these facilities in terms of section 154 of the Constitution? Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: I think the
intervention of the District Development Model, DDM, is but one intervention that can help us to co-ordinate all spheres from national, provincial and local government. I have no authority to comment much about municipalities. It is not my space, but I think it is important to make reference. Indeed, there are municipalities that are facing challenges. Hence, I think through the DDM, we will be able to make interventions necessary to make sure that the provision of sports infrastructure is adhered to and delivered.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Minister, you will consider that our biggest enemy as a country is not a
lack of public funds, but rather it is corruption from public figures. What measures will be taken to ensure that corruption, fraud and mismanagement of funds do not overtake this planned maintenance and refurbishment? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: A number of
engagements with various municipalities and provinces, again through DDM, we are in discussion with Cogta to see how we can make sure that at national level ourselves as a department, can directly implement some of the departments, again, to curb what you allege as enemy number one in the country, corruption. I think through that engagement we should be able
- not to make speculations - but decisively to deal with issues of corruption and make sure that we mitigate against corruption. Thank you.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you, Chair. Minister apart from refurbishing and maintaining old sports facilities in the townships, how far are you about the issue of the stadium that was supposed to have been built in Oranjeville in Metsimaholo Municipality that reflects in the Auditor-General’s report of 2019, where an amount of R21,7 million was paid but still no stadium to date to promote sports? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: This morning we
received the Auditor-General’s report of the first quarter and there are a number of other reports that were received earlier of some of the infrastructures that have been left incomplete. We are dealing with that issue, again, in co-operating with a number of other stakeholders, including that municipalities including Polokwane, including a number of municipalities in the Eastern Cape as well as in Kwazulu-Natal. So, we are dealing with that issue to make sure that those contractors who were meant to do their work will complete that work on time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Thank you, hon Minister. The last follow up question 206 is from hon M Nhanha from the DA. Hon Nhanha.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: House Chair, thank you very much. Because of network problems, I will be taking it. Thank you. Good afternoon, Minister. Sporting facilities have been neglected
...
Mr M A NHANHA: ... Actually ...
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Are you there? Thank you. Sorry, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Hon Nhanha, you can go ahead. [Inaudible.] ... Well, let’s come back to you, hon Boshoff.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Thank you very much. Let’s try again. Good afternoon, Minister. Sporting facilities have been neglected across the country in most communities and this includes sporting facilities at schools. I am aware of the conference recently held in Gauteng that focused on school sports. As your department is supposed to be the champion of sporting excellence, what is your department doing with the Department of Education to ensure the refurbishing of school sporting facilities? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much, House Chair. The phenomenon we have in our communities is that when a facility is built, the community has no ownership of that facility and I think we must bring back a sense in communities’ ownership. There is no government facility, it is a community facility. I think the destruction of any facility is the destruction of a community. Part of what we discussed in the recent school indaba was the partnership between government departments and communities because it is communities at the end that do not benefit. That themselves
are destroying the future of their own children. Hence, the issue of partnerships about school sport, community must play a big role in making sure that they protect those facilities. Thank you very much.
Question 216:
Ms S B LEHIHI: Minister, the lack of sporting facilities in rural areas ... [Interjections.] ... is holding our children back as sport at grassroots level ... [Interjections.] ... is the foundation of sport. Do the ... [Interjections.] ... interventions which the Minister speaks of also include ... [Interjections.] ... cross ... [Interjections.] ...
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): ... just a minute, hon Lehihi. Hon Lehihi! Can you, please, first allow the Minister to answer your question before making a follow up.
Ms N TAFENI: Hello! Chair! Minister!
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Please, allow the Minister to first respond to your question, then you will make a follow up.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: [Laughter.] The
Maquassi problem is big. The allocation of both the Urban Settlement Development Grants and the Municipal Infrastructure Grants to local government is aligned to a mandate of sport facilities conferred to this sphere in terms of Schedule 5B of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. Grants established to finance sport infrastructure are not allocated to the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture as a custodian of the sector, but to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and the Department of Human Settlements which are custodian departments for local government grants prioritisation of allocation of budgets to sports infrastructure projects in both the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG, and the Urban Settlement Development Grant, USDG.
The Municipal Infrastructure Grant has been the main source of programme of funding, the provision of sports and recreational infrastructure. It is allocated 5% of the grant. Essentially, this means that Maquassi Hills, a Category B local municipality, must use 5% of its baseline Municipal Infrastructure Grant allocation towards sport recreational infrastructure. The allocation of sport facilities through the
Municipal Infrastructure Grant is based on 5% principle and not on budget requirement of the project.
A compromise was reached that only R300 million from the 5% of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant would be ring-fenced and will be allocated to dissect from municipalities on the basis of project requirement. The process to finalise this according to the beneficiaries is undertaken in consultations with provinces for municipalities to submit technical proposals for considerations in line with prescribed template where only projects in the Integrated Development Plan, IDP, are legible, based on an adjudication process, inputs from the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, provincial sport departments and available budget of the national department will approve a list.
The National Department of Sport, Arts and Culture allocates funding to provinces through the mass participation in Sport Development Conditional Grant. In the recent national indigenous games held in KwaZulu-Natal, the North West province had teams from Maquassi that participated and won medals. The provincial department provided support with the preparations for their participation. The ladies football team called the Scorpions from Maquassi which participated in the
Sasol League, is annually supported by the provisional department to participate in the Hollywood bets qualifying games.
Logistically, support was provided to a young athlete from Maquassi who qualified for an international tournament in Mauritius as part of the South African squad. The province has reported that later this month they will be distributing attire and equipment as part of second round distribution in the service point. Four codes of sports and 18 clubs for tennis, basketball, softball and football will also be beneficiaries. Thank you very much.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Hon Lehihi. Hon Tafeni. Hon Lehihi or hon Tafeni! Hon Lehihi, your first follow up question, please.
Ms N TAFENI: Okay, Chair. Is it Question 216?
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Your first follow up question, please.
Ms N TAFENI: Okay. The lack of sports facilities in rural areas across all provinces is holding our children back as
sport at grassroots level is the foundation of sport. Do the interventions which the Minister speak of also include considerations for children living with disabilities as they remain forgotten by this Ministry? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: One of the priorities which we adopted by declaration of the recently held the school sports indaba was that, as we talk about bringing back school sport the integral element of bringing back school sport is rural sport infrastructure. Some of the best excellence of our national teams come from areas with no infrastructure. For an example, Maweni, comes from school called Mqhewula in Scala. There is no infrastructure in that school and yet she became one of the stars in the recently held Women Netball World Cup. Bongi Msomi, comes from Hammersdale in KwaZulu-Natal.
We have now decided that for both of them, for Bongi Msomi we have already built a netball court facility and we are now building a netball court in Mqhewula, which is a rural area in Scala. We will do the same to make sure that all these facilities they too accommodate people with disability because these people are neglected yet is them that makes us shine in
the international stage and they have no infrastructure in areas where they come from. Thank you very much.
Mr M R BARA: Minister, you might have touched a bit on what I want to check with you. The municipalities and provinces do have the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, how effective is the working relationship between these spheres of government and the national government or department? Is the national department able to take stock of what is happening at these levels? What does it do afterwards to assist where there is lack of capacity? Thank you so much, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Our audits finds that there are similar problems in national departments, hon Bara. That the government departments inherently they like to work in silos. You will find that in national and in provinces too. You will find that the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture and Recreation in the province has no relationship with the Department of Education in the province and yet if you talk about school sport this two should be talking to each other.
Therefore, we will soon be signing a memorandum of understanding, MOU, with the Department of Basic Education with my Cabinet colleague, mam’uAngie. The reason we have
delayed that memorandum of understanding we had to make sure that we add these elements of how department in provinces can work together. Thank you very much.
Mr S F Du TOIT: Hon Minister, what is the success rate of sport development in rural areas since history has proven that the majority of funds for school development does not reach the children, the intended beneficiaries, since it is spent on catering and then co-ordinating? Can success be reached? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, what we find in most provinces is underspending or no funding at all in rural areas. The first thing we must do is to increase funding in rural sport development. What we find is not so much about catering, which there is nothing wrong when there’s a sporting activity that there must be catering, but we need to increase our funding to make sure that similar to what we invest in urban areas is almost equal to what we invest in rural areas including building rural sport infrastructure in rural areas. Thank you.
Mr M E NCHABELENG: Minister, I just want to check as we try to level the silos to ensure that government departments and
provinces work together, how do we in that process ensure that we don’t reassign more responsibilities to municipalities who are having, you know, responsibility of sport, arts and cultural development to municipalities who are having challenges with implementing their own developmental programmes? How do we ensure that we give them support without giving them lots of responsibilities that may choke them?
Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: You will be pleased to know that I am in conversation with the Minister of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Minister Thembi, to exactly deal with those issues. We realised that we must not overburden the municipalities on some of the issues that we know they have no implementation capacity on. I think as soon as that conversation is beginning to bear fruits we should be able to say that in this area belongs to a municipality because municipalities are not of the same size and, therefore, their capacity implement is not the same and also to say that this area belongs to a province. That we do as well with working together with federations and other stakeholders.
We don’t want to give ... [Inaudible.] ... areas of priority in a municipality knowing that municipality will only be able in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, period only to implement one. So, that conversation between two Ministers we hope it will help us to achieve the intended results of implementing those programmes. Thank you.
Question 213:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chairperson,
Athletics SA as a national federation has a responsibility to conduct talent identification, development and progression to their high performance programmes where athletes are supported and prepared for individual and multicoded international competitions. The SA Sports Federation which is SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc, has recently revised Operational excellence programme, Opex, which caters for high performance athletes from various federations including Athletics SA, Asa.
This programme supports athletes that demonstrated great potential through their international individual competition in preparation for 2024 Paris Olympics.
The department also supports Athletic SA in terms of implementing their development in high performance programmes. Working with provinces, the department also supports sports academies among others to provide scientific support, conditioning, coaching and preparing camps to the development of athletes.
In addition, athletics is included in school and rural sport development programmes being implemented by the department. These programmes are aimed at creating a pipeline for codes such as athletics. Thank you very much.
Mr M R BARA: Hon Chairperson, our athletes are traditionally of an exceptional quality. They are however failed by a department full of incompetent administrators more interested in sponsoring super fans in France and ignore the requirements of the World Anti-Doping Code that could soon lead to South Africa participating as the neutral country and not under their safe banner.
Now, the question hon Minister: Is our failure doing medals due to the incompetence in the department, Sascoc, Asa, or one of the other sporting codes bodies or to all of the above?
Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chairperson, I am grateful of South Africans who love their country and are patriotic to their country. I am grateful of the work and the sacrifice they make against all odds. I am therefore in full support of people like Mama Joy who carry and fly the SA Flag, regardless of the sporting code sacrificing they have because of the love of their country.
I think it would be unfair to refer to them as nothing else, but somebody call them in the name that I will not repeat in this House. It is that which must drive me with passion that I must support such individuals who continue to make sure that they contribute to the mandate of the department of social cohesion and nation building.
As for other comments that the hon member is making, I do not think they are relevant at this stage. I think they are political statements, but factually, I will continue to support everybody regardless of creed, race and colour who raise and fly the flag of South Africa including Mama Joy.
Thank you.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, as a country we have to accept the sad reality that the ruling party does
not prioritise sports. We know this to be the truth as over the past years 30 years, we have witnessed the lack of proper planning and financial backing provided to this sector.
What initiatives has the Minister taken to growth and to train athletes at an earlier age so that they may perform at the highest level in major international events? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chairperson,
maybe I must take a trouble of inviting the hon member to some of the events we have. The upcoming events following the successful School Sport Indaba is going to be in provinces and I do not know which province he will be when we host the provinces just to indicate and demonstrate to him how much the governing party, his own party the ANC because I know where his heart is, he will appreciate how much we recognise and take sport seriously as a nation building and as a tool for social cohesion. Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, what private, public partnerships with local community sport clubs has government struck to build on existing facilities and talent, especially in rural areas to promote the access to all sport distant under the athletics banner? How will government make
established infrastructure in the urban areas more accessible to rural athletes. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you very much for that question Bungane. We are convening the Minmec in a matter of days. Part of the items in that Minmec is the whole issue of partnership at a rural level because we think that government, like I said earlier, we should not create an impression that there are certain things that can be done by government only without other stakeholders. Stakeholders in rural communities be they business, local people or local structures play an important part in the development of rural sport. Whether we are talking about rural sport infrastructure, it is those people and stakeholders in those areas that must be involved. We think that that item will help us to enhance as we continue to go to provinces now to make sure that we engage those rural stakeholders to ensure that at the end they participate in the developmental sport in those areas. Thank you very much, Bhungane.
Ms N NDONGENI: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, from the interaction of the department with key stakeholders in the athletic sector and based on the international trends, what are the key factors that had led to this decline in athletic
performance and what is the plan in addressing these factors? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: One of our analysis, hon Ndongeni, is that the administrative challenges that besotted Sascoc over the past two years had had an impact on the performance of our athletes. Now with stability that you see, from the point of view of leadership and governance of Sascoc, we are beginning to see improvement. That is but one, but secondly, there is anecdotal evidence that if we had to do a comparative analysis of South Africa and other similar economies in the world, you will realise that countries with smaller number of national teams participating at the Olympic level for an example there seem to be much more bigger number of medals. And therefore Sascoc over a period of time then revised and reviewed its selection policy in terms of participation.
So, there are lessons to be learned and that is besides the high performance centres. However, I think it tells us a story that if you focus in sporting codes that you do best, instead of taking every code to the Olympics for an example some of the countries that bring back huge number of medals is because they identify those sporting codes that they are good at and
they invest in those. I think we are beginning to learn as we go forward and as we prepare for Paris 2024...
IsiXhosa:
... xa siphinda sisiya eFrance.
Question 207:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: The National Sport and Recreation Plan, NSRP, and the White Paper on Sport and Recreation focuses on three pillars, namely, an active nation, a winning nation and an enabling environment. The department implements sports programmes in line with the National Sport and Recreation Plan, which has paved a way for the development needs of sport in the country. The plan remains a guiding policy framework for funding and promotion of sport in the country.
Funding is availed to provinces through mass participation and Sport Development Conditional Grant, which forms a greater allocation of financial resources in some provinces. For an example, in 2023-24 financial year, an amount of R603 million was allocated to the provinces through the grant. As a result, through an active nation pillar, access to sport and recreation opportunities is provided, especially to previously
disadvantaged areas, including townships. This is done by focussing in these three main areas that I have made mentioned to.
The partnerships with organisations like LoveLife and Sport for Social Change Network, SSCN, assist in expanding these opportunities. Further, the programmes of entities also provide life skills and advocacy in the fight against gender- based violence. The successes have not only been without any challenges in the programmes, which require us to still work on resolving, especially around the following areas, policy implementation, stakeholder management, transversal matters, resource mobilisation, community sport, sport ambassadors and others.
They provide motivation coaching clinics within the school sport programme. The sport ambassadors also serve as ambassadors in many of the major sporting events that South Africa host and participate in, such as the recently held programmes of netball as well as football. Thank you very much.
Ms N E NKOSI: Hon Chair, greetings to your good self, the Minister and my colleagues. Hon Minister, as you may be aware,
there are various empirical studies that have continued to point out the causal relations between the indulgence of youth in antisocial and criminal activities, and the lack of sporting and recreational activities. We welcome the intervention of the department in this regard.
However, from a policy point of view, hon Minister, what are the incentives for organised local sporting bodies to invigorate youth participation in sports? I thank you, hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Nkosi, thank you very much for the question. The biggest investment and incentive are school sport. It is an area of grass-roots foundation where we are able to organise and mobilise young people at a very young age. If you are talking about social ills and if you are talking about substance abuse, that is a level at which we can successfully deal with some of the social ills we see in society. So, the focus on school sport in terms of policy and focus going forward is nothing else, but school sport. Thank you very much.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): The next follow up question is from hon M Dlamini from the EFF. Hon Dlamini.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Can you allow me, Chair?
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Okay.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you. Minister, the question is whether such plans include promoting talent by creating schools of excellence that enhance talent and visibility like the National School of Art being cascaded down to provinces such as Mpumalanga? If so, please provide details. Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: At the roadmap, as we implement the declaration of the School Sport Indaba, it is the concentration of high-performance centres. How do we then make sure that it goes out of the urban areas like in the Western Cape, Stellenbosch? How do we make sure that in the areas such as where you get some of the best rugby players in Boland, you bring it closer to the areas like Drakenstein, in the areas that you have spoken about in Mpumalanga and in the areas of people who come from places such as Nzhelele, the most rural area in Limpopo?
Therefore, part of rolling out the implementation of school sport must amongst others, be brought back and down to the
rural areas, which are high performance areas. So, as part of the conversation of School Sport Indabas which are now going to regions and provinces, it is almost a reorientation of how we should go around the issues of facilities that will make sure that talent identification starts from the grass-root level, and also that there are facilities that make sure that we don’t have all the athletes that must come in one centre called Johannesburg or Cape Town, because it has got a high- performance facilities. Thank you very much.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, what steps were taken between your department and that of the Department of Basic Education and Higher Education, to ensure that funding is being made available at all schools to give sufficient attention to school sports, and are there any measuring tools to ensure that educators are equipped to attend to these school sport requirements?
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Du Toit, you will
be pleased to know that part of the conversation is whether you should train the already available educators, or do you need coaches who comes from outside. For an example, the conversations that we have is, should we use sports ambassadors which are people like Lucas Radebe, people like Dr
Khumalo or people like former players as coaches? What will that do in terms of fiscal constraints? Is that an additional budget or because of those constraints, must we train those who are already in the system?
That part of conversation is a very difficult and very important debate to have, because if we are to consider anything outside of the current budget, it may be difficult to motivate. However, we hope that the federations, everybody and stakeholders that are involved in the education sector, will appreciate whatever decision taken. Hence, even teachers or educators’ associations and unions, are part of that conversations so that they assist us to implement these resolutions. Thank you very much.
Ms H S BOSHOFF: Minister we’ve heard quite a lot about school sports and what you are going to do, but you have to agree that the development of sporting excellence in South Africa normally starts at a very young age and at school level.
Unfortunately, the power of the SA Democratic Teachers’ Union, Sadtu, has destroyed the hopes of many aspiring athletes in our country. Furthermore, the failure of the Department of Basic Education to facilitate proper transport after sporting activity, is the final nail in the coffin.
Minister, please, this is the answer that we need. When will your department engage meaningfully with the Department of Basic Education to rectify this sorry state of affairs and show the communities and schools that you care because you have said that it actually belongs with communities. So, let’s start at the beginning with the basics, get that right and you will see more and more athletes coming to the fore. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: In one of the
international benchmarks which was presented at the recently held School Sport Indaba, for some of the successful sporting nations, we found that, actually, at a school sport level during their consultation, they have consulted the teachers’ union. In Jamaica, it was through that consultation that we were presented with a Jamaican model which is one of the best successful international models. It included the teachers’ union.
You go to Germany, you go to Switzerland, you go to New Zealand, they will tell you the same story, not because they love or hate the teachers’ unions, it is a reality that they are there, and they are an important stakeholder. We will continue to consult with them, and we will work with them because they’ve got a role to play. I don’t think it will help
us to put them aside because, ideologically, you don’t like unions.
The fact of the matter is that you have the teachers’ unions such as Sadtu and many others that must help you to get the kind of desired results we want. Thank you very much.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Hon Minister, that was the last question. You can take your seat.
HON MEMBER: Malibongwe.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr M I Rayi): Hon delegates, I would like to thank the Minister, the MECs, all permanent and special delegates and SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives, for availing themselves for the sitting. Hon delegates, that concludes the business of the day. The Council is adjourned.
The Council adjourned at 16:50.
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