SAPS on its 2018 Annual Performance Plan: Meeting postponed

Meeting report

The Chairperson welcomed all who were in attendance. After noting no apologies from absent Members of the Committee, he requested the delegation explain why the Minister and Deputy Minister were not present at the meeting. The Chairperson confirmed that invitations to attend the meeting were specifically sent to the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Police.

Discussion

Ms T Wana (ANC, Eastern Cape) raised a concern that there was no Minister present, at the meeting, with the delegation.

Mr G Michalakis (DA, Free State) raised a similar concern and asked for an opportunity to engage further after an explanation has been provided by the SAPS delegation. He reminded the Committee that it previously took a position that when there is no politician present to answer to political questions, the delegation must go and come back with someone who can answer politically. Police is the only debate in the NCOP in the Security and Justice cluster, this is the most important presentation received from Police annually. Politicians need to be present to answer to political questions. Why is the Deputy Minister not standing in for the Minister and why has the Minister of Police not been here in the past four years?

Ms T Mokwele (EFF, North West) raised a concern that the Committee is not respecting time.

The Chairperson apologised for the meeting starting a bit late because they needed to urgently conclude the business of the previous meeting. The Committee is respectful of time.

The Chairperson requested the delegation to explain why the Minister is not present.

Lt Gen Francinah Vuma, Deputy National Commissioner: Assets and Legal Management, SAPS, explained that the Minister and Deputy Minister were currently attending a meeting in the Eastern Cape. Due to the taxi violence, they were urgently required to attend. She also explained that the National Commissioner was attending the Portfolio Committee meeting on Police at this time.
She was requested to lead the delegation in the interim and the National Commissioner will come as soon as he has finalized that meeting and highly respects this Committee.

The delegation was introduced to Members of the Committee by Lt Gen Francinah Vuma.

Ms G Oliphant (ANC, Northern Cape) raised concern that the National Commissioner could be answering questions the whole day, possibly until the conclusion of this meeting/ He complained that SAPS is not taking the Committee seriously.

Ms Mokwele rejected the apology from the Minister and Deputy Minister. Both cannot be attending the same event as officials who are also accountable to other operational matters. The Minister and the Deputy do not have to attend to issues of violence at the same time and same venue. If the Minister is deployed, the Deputy Minister must attend to other matters because it will then effectively mean the Ministry is closed because of the taxi violence at eNgcobo. It is a very small village although the matter is a serious one it cannot be that both are not here. Her acceptance of the National Commissioner’s apology was on condition that he is indeed in Parliament, currently, attending to questions from the Portfolio Committee. So many political questions need to be raised and the delegation will only be able to answer to the operations. She further stated that political heads undermine Select Committees and prioritise the Portfolio Committees, this makes it difficult for Members of the Committee when doing oversights and they are unable to deal with challenges without political direction. Her suggestion is not to allow any presentation to be done in absence of the executive.

Mr Michalakis aligned himself with the views expressed by his colleagues. He agreed that both the Minister and the Deputy do not need to attend the meeting in the Eastern Cape. The invitation to this meeting was sent a while ago and the Ministers did not provide apologies beforehand. Apologies were only received upon enquiring about their non-attendance, at the meeting, and this seemingly shows disrespect for the Select Committee. This is not the first time someone from SAPS is not able to attend this meeting because of a Portfolio Committee meeting. He further stressed that the debate for this meeting is a political one, not only operational, and politicians need to come to answer. He thanked the delegation for coming and stated that without them SAPS would never appear before Members of the Committee.

Lt Gen Vuma responded that it is possible that the Minister could have left a message with the National Commissioner because both were present at yesterday’s Portfolio Committee meeting. The National Commissioner did intend to come to the meeting but when the time came to come to the meeting he was on the podium answering questions from the Portfolio Committee. He indicated he will join the meeting when he is done. She pointed out that it is challenging when the Portfolio Committee and the Select Committee calls the SAPS as both invitations had to be honoured.

The Chairperson concurred that previously decisions were made that it is the executive, only, and nobody else accountable to Parliament. If a Minister is invited by Parliament, the Ministry must at least have the decency to explain the situation if the Minister is not able to attend. The Chairperson has not received any correspondence from the Ministry and takes exception. In the past four years, the Ministry from SAPS have not appeared in front of the Committee, and on that basis ruled the meeting cannot proceed without the Minister even if the National Commissioner would join the meeting later.

Ms Wana proposed for the meeting to be concluded.

This proposal was accepted.

The SAPS delegation was excused.

Adoption of Minutes
Members were requested to remain to adopt the minutes from the previous meeting.

The Chairperson tabled the minutes of the meeting on 28 March 2018. The minutes were duly adopted with no amendments.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting.