Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 06 Mar 2024
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 6 MARCH 2024
PROCEEDING OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch video here: Plenary
The House met at 15:00.
The Acting Speaker, Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
QUESTIONS – CLUSTER 2: SOCIAL SERVICES
Question 95:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, Acting Speaker, and greetings to all the hon members, thanks for the question. The answer is that a panel for accreditation of student accommodation was appointed consisting of 39 service providers. The awarding of these contracts was based on standardised rate-based costs for all the accredited providers. The total paid, to date, for 2023 accreditation, amounts to R1,575 million.
The service providers do not work with the local municipalities, ideal as this would be. They were all required to have the following skills in their team, a building inspector, engineer, electrician and a health and safety official. They were also required to have experience in the inspection of properties and the footprint in their region of choice, as well as sufficient resources. Thank you, hon Acting Speaker.
Mr N N CHIRWA: Thank you, Speaker, Minister, please share with us the total number of properties where accreditation has been conducted, how many of these have been successfully accredited, and what the number of beds in each property at the institutions of higher learning is. We ask this because we want to visit these institutions as part of oversight. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Acting Speaker, I want to plead with the EFF, don't ask one question and then pretend it's a follow-up. You are asking a completely new question. The original question asks, what is the total monetary value of the contracts awarded to the four service providers? Now, you are asking me to answer about all the service providers. Unfortunately, I don't have that answer now, not because I wouldn't like to answer that question, but it's a new question. It's different. So, don't try and score and win cheap political points by violating the procedures for asking questions and asking new questions. I'd be more than happy if you had asked that question to answer that question.
IsiZulu:
Musani ukuzokhankasa la ngemibuzo la ePhalamende.
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Members, the Rules do state that a supplementary question must relate directly to the primary question that was asked, and I think the hon member is more than welcome to get that information from the hon Minister through a written question, and as the Minister has said, he'll provide that information. Unfortunately, it is not part of the primary question.
Ms D P SIBIYA: Hon Acting Speaker, the demand for student accommodation will always exist as the demand for higher education grows. It is preferable to have higher education institutions own sufficient student accommodation as institutional residents also promote the curriculum activities of the university.
The question is, hon Minister, what measures are being undertaken by higher education institutions to increase student accommodation investment, to increase beds owned and managed by the institutions to reduce long-term dependency on private sector service providers? I thank you, Acing Speaker.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Acting Speaker, and thanks to the hon Sibiya, ...
IsiZulu:
... Mama uSibiya, umbuzo wokubuzwa lowo mbuzo ngoba siyayibona le ngozi yokuthi singuHulumeni ukwethembela ezindaweni zokuhlala esihamba siyozithenga kubantu abathi banezindawo zokuhlala abafundi kusifaka enkingeni. Yingakho
...
English:
... every year we have a budget, I can provide that information, from what we call our infrastructure and efficiency grant that we give billions of rand, I think this year it is just over R3 billion, and we are going to be getting new monies from the National Treasury because we aim is to build university and college-owned accommodation because this thing of private accommodation is causing us endless headaches. So, we are engaging the National Treasury to increase the amount of money through which we can be able to build accommodation that is owned by our universities.
Already we have made applications to the National Treasury. I've got a list here of the number of beds that we have applied for throughout our 26 public universities, as well as our 50 TVET colleges, and one of the things I'm going to do as this Sixth Administration comes to an end will be a reliable calculation of how much is that going to cost so that when the Seventh Administration comes in, knows exactly how much money we need, over how long, to be able to build university and college-owned student accommodation. So, we have got that in our plans already.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga Mama uSibiya ngombuzo ophusile.
English:
Ms C V KING: Minister, here is some info on Bid SCMN003 of 2022 to appoint experienced accreditation agents, Khethakanye Trading, is not experienced in the field and they are linked to the direct payment service provider Coinvest. The sole director of Muofhe Trading the chief director of the e- government department in Gauteng. The Innate-Safari Property and Asset Management director is a chairperson of the Finance and Accounting Service Sector Education and Training.
The director of TKR Accreditation is an employee of Amscor. The directors of NPS Management Solutions are owners of the student accommodation in Pretoria registered on the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS student portal. The director of Lomahayihayi Enterprise is a 20-year-old who is a child of the provincial spokesperson of the ANC in Mpumalanga. The list is endless. Minister, who vetted the accommodation portal agents and accrediting agents, and will you investigate the awarding of these contracts?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon King, the best thing you should have done is give me that information because you are mentioning specific companies.
How on earth am I supposed to guess who those companies are and what your complaint is about? Now you want us to appear as if we are dodging answering questions. Give that information to me now, I will answer and give you the exact details of the information that you are asking for. Don't continue violating the Rules of questions by asking me new questions that are not there.
IsiZulu:
Nize ukuzokhankasa. Anizile ukuzobuza imibuzo la.
English:
Hon King ...
IsiZulu:
... noma uvele lapho ebhayiskobho, yilethe le mibuzo. Ngizokwazi ukuthi ngikuphendulele yona kuzwa izwe lonke. Akukho ngisho into eyodwa enginqena ukuyiphendula. Kodwa musani ukuzoletha imibuzo ebikade ingabuziwe la. Ngiyabonga, Mhlali ngaphambili.
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Who is raising a point of order?
Mr D W MACPHERSON: It is the hon Macpherson on the virtual platform. Acting Speaker, on a point of order: If the Minister is going to refuse to answer questions that are directly related to questions and that the member is entitled to ask, then what is the point of the Minister being here today?
Because he is dodging, ducking and diving from being accountable.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I want to repeat what I said earlier. The follow-up questions must relate directly to the primary ... [Interjections.] ... You don’t shout at me, I'll put you out. Just try it again. Hon members, ... question that has been asked. If it doesn't relate directly to that, it would be unfair for the Minister to provide information that he doesn't have at his disposal. So, what you can do in this situation is, the Minister has taken note, simply forward a written question to the Minister and he will be able to provide you with the correct information. You see, you run the risk if the Minister now simply responds that he could give information that's
incorrect, which is tantamount to misleading the House and we cannot allow that to happen. That is not in terms of the parliamentary Rules. Yes, hon member?
Ms N N CHIRWA: Acting Speaker, on a point of order: I just want to ask the Speaker to be cognisant of the answers that the Minister is not responding to. In relation to the question that we asked, it's about service providers providing accreditation for property ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member.
Ms N N CHIRWA: ... and we are asking how many properties are accredited?
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): You see, hon member, please take your seat. The Minister is the executive authority. The Minister is not the line function official that is working with that information. Do you now expect the Minister to give you those types of specifics if you did not ask it in the primary question? And by the way, the primary question has been asked very specifically to which the Minister has responded and let us conduct the session in that
way. Let's be fair to one another, while at the same time ensuring that we do get the information from the Minister, as he has indicated that he will provide it when you request it in writing. Hon Radebe? And I want to get on with the question session now.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Acting Speaker, on a point of clarity: I think that we must also appeal to the members here that questions of a statistical nature cannot be expected to be answered in the House. They can only be asked in the form of a written question. Thank you, Acting Speaker.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I have now dealt with this matter, and I want to proceed now with the rest of the questions. The last follow-up question has been asked by the hon Zondo. Is the hon member on the platform? Or is the Party Whip taking it on his behalf? [Interjections.] Please, proceed, hon member.
Mr S S ZONDO: Hon Minister, cool down. We know we are going to the elections.
The ACTING SPEAKER: What is the question hon member?
Mr S S ZONDO: Cool down, hon Minister. In the light of recent revelations and issues highlighted by the Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse, Outa, in its equity into the National Student Financial Aid Scheme pilot project regarding student accommodation. The owners and developers of facilities constructed for the NSFAS students express the view that the
15 000 reduction is impractical in light of the escalating interest rates, maintenance expenses and municipal charges. What are the steps the Department of Higher Education, Science and Innovation undertaking to guarantee fair and sustainable compensation for the accommodation providers ensuring that the upkeep of student living standards irrespective of their ... [Time expired.] ...
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Acting Speaker, I want to assure, hon Zondo, that I am as cool as a cucumber.
IsiZulu:
Angikaze nje ngasatshiswa umphikisi empilweni yami.
English:
Hon Zondo, the best way to answer your question is simply that the pilot by the NSFAS to accredit particular providers of accommodation is aimed at only one thing, that students do not stay in accommodation that is below par, that is at variance with the kind of learning environment that we need, and as a government, we have got a very clear, as the department, policy and criteria for doing that.
Then what the NSFAS was doing, by the way, they sought permission from me because I said you can't be paying money without ensuring yourself that the accommodation is up to standard. Then NSFAS checks a number of things, the standard, the quality, the context, including the challenges in specific municipalities that are there so that the NSFAS is also able to work towards addressing those problems. That is at the heart of the answer to the question that you are asking, including the question of municipal charges.
We are doing this, in conclusion, because there are so many chancers who build, literally, sometimes things equal to shacks and then they come and charge the students exorbitant amounts of money in an environment that is not correct. The other problem is that the NSFAS is required to account by this
Parliament, by the Auditor-General, for having paid money that they can't explain. How do they pay so much money for accommodation that is below par? All these things that you are asking about are about that and everything is done to address this ... [Interjections.] ... way to tackle this. Thank you very much, Acting Speaker.
Question 71:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you, hon Chair, and thank you to hon Mananiso for the question. The answer to the question is that all our 26 public universities have commenced with registration as I am speaking now. Most have paid book allowances to students after receiving an amount of R2 872 billion from NSFAS in January 2024, also.
Most universities reported to be in the process of paying out food allowances, and in some instances, accommodation allowances after receiving further allocations from NSFAS. Some universities have agreed to even extend the registration period to support the onboarding of more students.
Secondly, the total number of provisionally funded students from the bursary allocation for the 2024 academic year is R1,2 million, as paid data that was captured on 4 March. That
is the latest data available. NSFAS is processing applications for the loan scheme that we have introduced for the missing middle, hoping to fund an estimated 31 800 students. Thank you.
Ms J S MANANISO: Thank you, Acting Speaker. Minister, thanks for your detailed response. The number of youths not in employment, education or training is at a concerning rate and the post-school education and training sector, p-set sector, can serve as a sector to reduce the need. However, they most importantly create skills development opportunities which can contribute to create sustainable economic opportunities for the youth and those who are unemployed and above the age of
35. Minister, my question is: What are the short-, medium- and long-term plans of the department to expand the p-set sector to respond to the needs of the needy. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Chair, and thanks to hon Mananiso. As a department, thanks for the question. We have got a fairly
comprehensive program to actually respond to students who are not in education, not in employment and not in training. What we call the needs. I am just going to ... [Interjections.]
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): The Minister! Hon Minister, my apologies. There is the disturbance on the platform. Disconnect that member, please. Please continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Our
entire post-school education and training system is geared towards, amongst other things, making sure that we will provide additional opportunities to those students who sometimes or you would refer to as basically sitting at home. The one area of focus is artisan development, where we are specifically targeting the needs, to recruit them into apprenticeships, so that they are able to then end up going to do testing and actually qualify.
Right now, we are producing just over 20 000 artisans per annum. Were it not because of Covid-19, we possibly would have been at 23 000 or 24 000 in order to meet the NDP target of
30 000 artisans that we must be producing per annum. We have
also prioritised the top-10 artisanal trades, like electricians, diesel mechanics, mechanical fitters, plumbers, boilermakers and such other professions.
Also, we are increasing what we call work-based placed opportunities for young people who may not actually be in apprenticeships towards being artisans, but to be given the most important first 12 months of work experience so that they are able to improve their chances of either getting a job or embarking on their own entrepreneurial activities.
We have set the number of targets for 2024. I am willing to share that with hon Mananiso and, also, at an appropriate time, either through this House or through her own office, to outline all this. [Interjections.] Thank you very much.
Ms K L KHAKHAU: Thank you, Acting Speaker.
Sesotho:
Le bapala diketo ka bokamoso ba sechaba, Letona.
English:
You know very well that you insincerely announced this inactive missing middle plan to divert attention from your alleged NSFAS corruption scandal. We know this because we are two months into this academic year and NSFAS is yet to properly see the plan that they are supposed to administer, let alone rolling it out. The same NSFAS that has failed to properly administer to oversee payments for its current and former beneficiaries. So, what more an added load?
Further, the DA has plan to rescue higher education. It has a more sustainable DA funding model, which breaks down as 100% funding for incomes between zero rand and R180 000; 66% for funding between R180 000 to R350 000; and 33% for R330 000 R600 000. Why not copy and paste this model instead?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Chairperson, I wanted to inform hon Khakhau, possibly to her disappointment, that we have more than 30 000 students who have applied for the loan scheme. The reason why the loan scheme is administered by NSFAS - maybe I need to give you a lecture in law – is that in law, the only entity that is supposed to give student loans is the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, which is something that they have done
before the bursary was introduced in 2018 and they are doing it now.
I am willing to admit that NSFAS does have challenges. But I am confident that, at the moment, they are working to address those weaknesses. They are currently engaging both public and private financial institutions to look at additional capacity. Yes, of course, we introduced this funding model this year.
What do you expect?
There are applications. We have also developed the guidelines as to who qualifies. That is why so many students have actually applied. You are just disappointed about the fact that. This government continues to expand access to children of the workers and the poor people, as well as the working class. That is what you do not want ...
IsiZulu:
... ngoba nina niyinhlangano i-DA yabantu abadla izambane likapondo. Hhayi, lezi zingane okuyizona esizondlayo. Woza ngizokufundisa ngikukhombise ukuthi kwenziwani la. Siyabonga Mphathi wohlelo.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Minister, you recently announced the funding of the missing middle, right, and you want students to sign loan agreements and acknowledgement of debts. Please appraise the public on the conditions of the agreement and the details of the acknowledgment of debts, as we have received complaints from students that they are not given documents that explain what these conditions and these acknowledgements of debt are, especially because they fail to deliver free education for everyone.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thanks, hon Chair. We have just published all these conditions. Please, before you come and ask here, hon Chirwa,
... [Interjections.] ... just educate yourselves. The NSFAS just released the criteria. Let me tell you what it is. You sign acknowledgement of debt, and your loan only starts accumulating interest a year after you have completed your qualification; not before that. [Interjections.]
Mr V GERICKE: Order, Chair!
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Sorry, hon Minister. What is the point of order?
Mr V GERICKE: Yes, Chairperson. With all due respect, can we ask the Minister to answer the question? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, take your seat. Hon members, order. Order! Order, hon members. Hon members, please familiarise yourself with the Rules and what a point of order is. Do not rise on a point of order if it has nothing to do with the Order that we are dealing with. Please proceed, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Once
the student starts paying - we have made the rules very clear
- the amount of interest you are going to pay is going to be linked to the prime interest rate because we don’t want education loans to be given as if they are commercial loans. These are loans for education.
Those are the conditions. That is why students are signing now because they know exactly what they are actually signing about? As a matter of fact, I am very concerned about student debt.
IsiZulu:
Ngilaleleni phela, ubunguMvikeli Womphakathi wena lungu elihloniphekile Mkhwebane kodwa awulaleli.
Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Point of order, Chairperson!
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let me just take this point of order. Yes, hon member. Order!
Adv B J MKHWEBANE: I am rising on the point of order that the Minister cannot just point at me; he must just answer the question. Chairperson, can you protect me as a member of this House?
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat. Hon Minister, will you address the Chair, please?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: All
I want to say, hon Chair, is that the rules are there and clear? The loan is being accepted by both parents and the students, and the conditions are very clear. NSFAS has explained this. I am also explaining some of the conditions and we are making a difference. Some parents are saying to me:
Nzimande, thank you very much to you, to the ANC, to government and to Cyril Ramaphosa for the kind of relief that you are giving us.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. Your time is now expired. Hon Manyi!
Mr M MANYI: Yeah. Thank you, Chairperson. I am actually rising, perhaps on a point of privilege, just to make one point that ... [Interjections.]
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. Order! Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon Letsie! Hon Letsie!
Mr M MANYI: Chairperson, when we ask, we are public representatives, and it is us here. [Interjections.]
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of probation, hon member? What?
Mr M MANYI: The point I am rising on is that when we ask questions here, we are asking these questions on behalf of the
public. The public is listening here. Ministers cannot refer their public to documents which the public doesn’t have access to. [Interjections.]
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not
... Hon members! Hon members! Hon members, including all these Presiding Officers, to my right: Let us just adhere to the Rules. That is not the point of privilege, really. We are not going to get ... You see, one thing that the hon member is correct on is that members are asking questions on behalf of the public because and public wants to know X, Y and Z.
However, if we start delaying proceedings during Questions time, we won’t be able to get through most of all these questions here. The very same public that is waiting for replies, will wait a lot longer or won’t even get the answer this afternoon because we, as members ourselves, are prolonging that process. How fair is that to the public now? Thank you.
Mr S S ZONDO: Hon Minister. We have received several complaints from the students who will ordinarily qualify for NSFAS funding. They getting emails rejecting them and the
reasons are only based on the parents earning more than allowed income per household. When engaging these cases, we have seen that NSFAS rejected students in the households having siblings who are apparently receiving NSFAS. While parents are ... [Inaudible.] ... what is the plan to address this issue of these household who fall within the missing middle class and have the impacted ... [Inaudible.] ... to the poor students.
IsiZulu:
Angazi ukuthi ke sizokwethemba kanjani ngempela uma uqhubeka nokwenza kanjena ngoba lezinto ozikhulumayo zisitshengisa ngokusobala ukuthi ngeke siphinde sikwethembe ngoba ulokhu ubaleka emahlazweni uphinde ukhulume into okungesiyo. Ugcina ukuba lapha eNdlini wathi kithi ayikho inkinga kwa-NSFAS.
English:
However, after that we have seen NSFAS firing the CEO and we have seen NSFAS firing the chair of the board, but ...
IsiZulu:
... namanje ...
English:
... you are still continuing, telling us ...
IsiZulu:
ukuthi ayikho inkinga kwa NSFAS, ...
English:
... whereas you know ...
IsiZulu:
ukuthi u-NSFAS ... [Interjections.]
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time is expired. You only have one minute to ask your question. If you have a lot of preambles before you ask the question, you lose the gist of your question. Hon Minister, did you get the question? Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you, hon Chair. Unfortunately, hon Zond was not very clear at the beginning of the question. What I heard is that I am standing here pretending that there are no problems in NSFAS, yet we are firing the CEO and all that. I have not said
that there are no challenges in NSFAS. I have been saying that we are addressing those challenges that are there. In the process, also, NSFAS is honouring to the best of its ability, ensuring that the students are registered. That is why we are at where we are now because we have provisionally approved R1,2 million for NSFAS students, yes, whose applications have actually been approved.
Learning and teaching has started in virtually all our universities and in all our TVET colleges. Also, where students have got problems, Mthiyane, there is a process of appealing through NSFAS. To NSFAS, I have said an appeal must not last forever: Each appeal must not last for more than seven days before we are able to respond to the students, so those so that those who have appealed are actually not left behind.
I have invited other members to come with me to NSFAS offices, even to sit in my offices, so that they do real time oversight and see what is it that we are doing. That is why the children of the poor and the working class ...
IsiZulu:
...njengoba sikhuluma nje, ziyafunda, zisemakilasini izingane zika-NSFAS.
English:
Thank you very much.
Question 72:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
House Chairperson, my apologies. I was checking if I was at the right question.
With regards to the recent incident at the Wilgenhof Men’s Residents at the University of Stellenbosch, as a department we have asked for a report from the university on these instances. The department has also established that the university has subsequently appointed a panel comprising an advocate from the Cape Bar and the Deputy Registrar Governance Ethics and Compliance and the former experienced university executive with the hope that they will complete the report and submit it to the university but also have requested that that report be submitted to the department as well. We have followed up on this commitment and we await the response from the university.
Prior to the Wilgenhof incident the department send a delegation led by our director-general to engage senior management of the university to address the issues of racism and discrimination. It our policy as this ANC government that we would not tolerate any incident of racism, patriarchal practices and any other form of discrimination.
We have also followed up on the issue of language because historically in this country, certain languages have been used as instruments of exclusion especially the black majority in South Africa. We respect all the South African languages, but none of them must be used as a basis of discrimination. We are monitoring this, and we have also asked each institution to develop its own transformation charter within the overall policies of the department and within that context that we have dealt, hon Letsie, with the problems at Stellenbosch University. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
Afrikaans:
Baie dankie.
Mr W T LETSIE: Hon Acting Speaker and hon Minister thank you very much for the response. Unlike those who want us to fund
children of the rich, we are going to ask relevant follow-up question.
With the example that you have given about Stellenbosch, that happened a year or so ago, when some white privileged boy, urinated on the laptop and study material of a black student there, hon Minister, there seems to exist a directly proportional relationship between institution that has slow growth in transformation and those that experience incidences of racist behaviour like this. Over and above what you have just said that you are awaiting a report from the institution, what else would your department and your Ministry do to force institutions like Stellenbosch University and the University of Cape Town, UCT, to accelerate transformation in their institutions? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Letsie, if you could give a workshop to the opposition on how to ask follow-up questions. [Laughter.]
It will help us ... [Inaudible.]
We are working with all our universities. In particular the universities where we have identified problems like Stellenbosch. We have agreed that they must run diversity workshops amongst other things. Staff, workers and academics, and also for students.
We are also working with the Human Rights Commission whose mandate of course is to promote respect for human rights and culture of human rights and dignity and promote protection development and attainment of human rights. These are some of the things that we are doing as the Department of Higher Education, Science and Innovation. However, it is also clear to us that myself and Minister Motshekga we also even need to do more work which amongst others I am glad that Minister Motshekga is undertaking the teaching of history in our schools. For one of our big problems is we behave today as if there was no apartheid, no racism and everything was absolutely hunky-dory so that every South African student at school going to high school as well, through university would have learn the true history of South Africa so that they are able to better appreciate the challenges that we have.
Those are some of these measures that this government of the ANC is engaging, specifically on Stellenbosch and also universities with challenges and generally in terms of creating the kind of nonracial and nonsexist society that we want to build. Thank you very much.
Mr S NGCOBO: Hon Acting Speaker, hon Minister, addressing issues of racism, sexism, tribalism and discrimination in institutions of higher learning will goa long way in making institutions safe spaces for students and in dealing with various challenges faced by students and staff.
Other institutions such as the University of KwaZulu-Natal without your help have introduced compulsory module on gender- based violence racism, xenophobia and homophobia.
What measures is your department taking to ensure that initiatives like this one are introduced in all institutions across the country? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Chairperson, I am very proud by the way of the question on what you are pointing out. I only wish that you could tell
your party that the Western Cape is not a Bantustan of some sort and that there is a white stan that is actually going to want to hide itself from South Africa. We are one country. I wish you could tell your party that.
We welcome the initiatives done by the University of KwaZulu- Natal. I am very well aware of in terms of introducing these programmes. However, also there are many other universities that are introducing programmes aimed at transforming and creating inclusive institutions.
As I have said over and above that we have a Transformation Charter as the Department of Higher Education, Science and Innovation and we have said each university must translate this Transformation Charter to its own conditions.
By the way, we also have a policy against gender-based violence and gender discrimination. Each of our universities and colleges must produce their own in line with the conditions in their own institutions. In fact, what we have just said, just proves the extent to which this government is naturing and creating an environment for building inclusive
institutions of higher education that actually befit a country like us.
IsiZulu:
Utshele ozakwenu laba enisebenza nabo ukuthi abazenze nabo le zinto ezindaweni abakuzona.
English:
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): The next follow-up question will be asked by the hon Shikwambana.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Hon Acting Speaker, I will take that one.
Hon Minister you are always quick to deal with predominantly black institutions and institutions where the managerial component is primarily black.
This deal however fades into the dark when it comes to white institutions.
The incidents at Stellenbosch can be directly linked to the insistent culture of Afrikanerdom there and the reluctance of that institution to transform as management and lecturing demographics.
However, has not done anything about this particular thing decisively. And if you have hon Minister, please let us know what decisive interventions have you implemented at Stellenbosch University? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Chirwa, I have answered your question as to what I have done at Stellenbosch.
I have Stellenbosch has appointed a retired judge, a registrar and an experienced executive and they are going into all the instances of racism.
Secondly, I have said that we have actually engaged Stellenbosch on running diversity workshops together with other institutions.
IsiZulu:
Angithembi angikuthuki uma ngithi engathi ubuhleli ngezindlebe njengoba bengichaza le nto.
English:
And also, it is simply it is not true to say we are only intervening in historically disadvantaged institutions. It is not true. At UCT we have intervened. It is going through reports and exercises, and I have said once those reports ...
Mr A MATUMBA: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let me just take this point of order.
What is your point of order, hon member?
Hon members, I want to hear what the hon member want to say.
Mr A MATUMBA: My point of order is in line with section 42(3) of the Constitution that says we represent people and as such we scrutinise a good oversight on the executive duties of the Ministers. So, the question was clear. What is he doing to transform Stellenbosch not inclusive. We do not want ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr A MATUMBA: ... the transformation ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Do not explain the question again!
Mr A MATUMBA: What did we transform?
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat! Hon Minister.
Order, hon members!
Do not interpret the question the way you like to hear it.
Hon Minister, please continue.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Chairperson, I think that for purposes of such sessions, it is important to distinguish between a disagreement and refusing to answer. If you disagree with my answer, it is not because I
am refusing to answer. It is because you have your particular orientation and your own belief.
I was answering the part of the hon Chirwa’s question. The UCT we have been engaging. The University of the Free State when those black domestic workers were forced to drink urine from young white male students, we took action at the University of the Free State about all that! Just like we did at the University of Stellenbosch. There is no university that I approached and say because it was formally a white university and therefore there can be no intervention. Not in my department and under my own watch! There is ample evidence on all those institutions whether it is the University of
KwaZulu-Natal, Rhodes University where there are problems we actually intervene.
Ms N N CHIRWA: On a point of order, Chairperson.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, your time has now expired.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Hon Chairperson, the Minister is not answering the question. We are speaking about the managerial component of universities. They are able to intervene if it is either black vice chancellors, but they are not able to give decisive leadership when it is white institutes of higher learning. We are asking about transformation not inclusion! He is not answering that.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Hon member, order! Hon members, order!
I think you must arrange a session. Order! Order, hon members! Hon members, maybe you must arrange a cup of tea with the hon Minister, with the member of your party who asked the original question and you can have a lovely discussion around where you would like the emphasis of the Minister in his reply should be. However, the time for the Minister to reply has expired to respond to that. In terms of the Rules, I now recognise the hon Boshoff.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Acting Speaker, I want to ask the Minister, but I want to start with the statement that section
235 of the Constitution recognises that maintaining one’s
cultural identity should not be equated or confused with racism. Now we understand that the historical advantage of Afrikaans is a problem for many members disregarding the historical advantages position of English.
My question is: What has the government done in 30 years to promote the higher education usage of African languages? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Chairperson, it is a new question though, but I am willing to actually say we have actually done a lot in that regard. In fact, there are many instances of universities now that are offering some of their modules in African languages in many of our universities. Some very important and interesting results are actually coming out of this. The students who are taught in their mother tongue even at universities on average turn to perform better. Even in the schooling system, there is a lot of evidence on that because those are the things we are actually doing.
I want to assure you hon Boshoff, I am not equating Afrikaner cultural identity with oppression in itself. However, if it
continues in a democratic South Africa to be applied as if it was 1976 and 1975 where back kids were being forced to use Afrikaans as a medium of instruction, that I will oppose not because I might be attacking Afrikaans language or identity which has a right to exist, Afrikaans as one of our official languages.
Yes, you are making a point that perhaps we have not moved fast enough to actually embrace the use of other languages other than English and Afrikaans in our institutions. There is a lot of work that we are doing. I will be more than happy to answer specific questions on that, but I am willing to say maybe we have not been able to move fast enough as we should. However, we will not allow any cultural or language identity to be used for purposes of excluding any other South African in this country. Thank you very much.
Afrikaans:
Baie dankie.
Question 73:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Chair, and thanks to hon Mkhatshwa
for the question. The Department of Science and Innovation is implementing a number of initiatives to support a low-carbon economy in the context of the water-energy-environmental nexus, which is important in the attainment of low-carbon economies, one key area of intervention, but also on waste and water, by way of an example, many activities fall under water and waste research, development and innovation roadmaps.
Some of the initiatives here include the Young Engineers Changemakers Programme and Water Technologies Demonstration Programmes. Building a circular economy, we've got specific demonstration funds that we can do more of a circular economy because we throw away many things in South Africa that we should actively recirculate. We also have ...
IsiZulu:
... ngizokuchazela nangesiZulu weMama uKhawula, ungajahi. Uyakhumbula ukuthi sikhule sicosha amathambo namabhodlela siwadayise. Siyafuna ukuthi siyiqhube leyonto.
English:
This is what a circular economy is about ...
IsiZulu:
... ngesintu.
English:
We've also been engaged in a number of initiatives on energy. I don't have enough time, unfortunately, to be able to count all of them, but we've got renewable energy hubs and the Spokes initiative. We are also developing the hydrogen economy, fuel cells economy as an alternative ... towards a low-carbon economy. Thank you very much, hon Speaker.
Ms N T MKHATSHWA: Thank you, Acting Speaker, thank you, Minister, we welcome the initiatives the Minister has just shared with us. These initiatives are a testament to the competence of the Department of Science and Innovation as they continuously place South Africa as a leading player in the global system of innovation. Minister, contrary to popular belief, young people are not averse to the just transition or move towards the green economy. They are excited about the new opportunity that may come forth. However, young people are also resolute that the added opportunities that come with the transition towards the green economy must address the inequities of the past and must propel an inclusive and
intersectional economy. The move towards the green economy will need us to upskill, and reskill, but also develop new skills.
Can you share with us, in the spirit of leaving no one behind, how we will ensure that TVET colleges and centres of artisanal skills training will become key role-players in the development of skills needed for some of these initiatives you have just shared with us? I thank you, Speaker.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Thank you very much, hon Speaker, and thanks to hon Mkhatshwa, there are a range of initiatives, specifically, I will just highlight the TVET colleges sector that you have mentioned.
There are many things, but I just want to highlight two that we are introducing into our TVET colleges sector. We are now introducing, for instance, entrepreneurship, because a lot of our TVET colleges graduate students, even if they come up with skills that are marketable to start their businesses, still want employment. If you are an electrician today, you don't need to be looking for employment. We are then introducing entrepreneurship so teach our youngsters from TVET colleges, when you come out as welders, how do you form your own company
so that you are able to consult and be able to get work for yourself. The second most important thing that we are introducing in TVET colleges is innovation. Historically, there's been no initiative supporting innovation in our TVET colleges. We've only had that in our universities because there is lots of innovation, by the way, that happens on the ground, and even at TVET colleges, many of the world’s ...
George Stephenson, who came up with the locomotive, was not an engineer. He was an artisan. So, there are many other initiatives and innovations that come from artisans that we need to foster. That is why we are bringing TVET colleges closer to innovation.
Maybe the last thing which is important in the light of time that I also need to save, is we have developed 26 skills centres of specialisation in our TVET colleges. Where TVET colleges are doing well in electricity, we support it even more and then partner with employers so that they produce the best possible electricians, just by way of an example. We've identified 10 key trades that we need, by the way, not only for now but also even for future artisans that we need who are able to deal with the new technologies. For instance, we need to reskill our artisans to be able to be artisans to promote
and handle the hydrogen economy. So, those are some of the initiatives that we are having in our TVET colleges because, as this government, you are right, hon Mkhatshwa, we do care about our young people. Part of caring about our young people is to make them relevant to the challenges of the time to be able to drive new technologies. Thank you very much.
Ms C V KING: Speaker, Minister, the transition to a circular economy provides means to implement just transition to unlock the socioeconomic opportunities and our international climate commitments to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals, SDGs. Capital costs required for the decarbonisation of the aviation sector require R8 billion, and R13,2 billion capital is required for the green steel projects. How will the 10,4% budget decrease of the Department of Science and Innovation have an impact on Programme 2, dealing with the hydrogen society roadmap in pursuit of realising a zero-carbon economy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
King, none of us like budget cuts, but the reality is that we are having many challenges in our economy, and we are having a fiscus that is constrained. What we are doing, amongst other
things, as the Department of Science and Innovation, and the Department of Higher Education and Training as well, is to actively put forth partnerships with industry. The President was telling me yesterday, I was talking to him that, as much as our budget is about R1,3 trillion, but the economy of South Africa’s GDP is something worth more than R6 trillion, which means there's a huge amount of money that is not sitting in the fiscus but is sitting, for instance, in the private sector. So, what we are doing then is to forge these partnerships with the private sector so that jointly and in a mutually beneficial way, we are able to leverage resources that are going to enable us to do this. So, it applies in different sectors, like we are talking about in aviation.
There is no need to why the aviation industry, for instance, can't invest in relevant projects and programmes in our universities to support the future of that particular industry.
So, the industry itself has a responsibility to play in partnership with our institutions to be able to provide the relevant skills that we need. That is often what I don't hear the DA say. With the DA it’s the government this, the government that but the private sector ...
IsiZulu:
... eninikeza izinqwaba zezimali zokuyokhankasa aniyibuzi ukuthi yingani ingakwazi ukufaka izimali emanyuvesi nasemakolishi ethu ukuze sikwazi ukukhiqiza abantwana esibadingayo. Anike nihambe niyobabuza laba abaninikeza lenqwaba yemali le enicabanga ukuthi nizosihlula ngayo futhi. Sizonishaya nangayo leyo mali yenu njengoba kuza ukhetho.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Speaker, Minister Mashonisa [loan shark], please provide us with practical examples on how your department and entities ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chirwa! Order, hon members, order. Hon Chirwa, just take your seat, please. Hon member, why do you want to be recognised?
Mr B A RADEBE: Acting Speaker, on a point of order: I'm rising on Rule 82, that one of us must refer to each other with respectable terms. The member has just ... [Inaudible.] ... the Minister. Thank you.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chirwa, you must refer ... hon members, I'm addressing your member now. You
must refer to the Minister in respectful terms ... [Interjections.] ...
Ms N N CHIRWA: Mashonisa [Loan shark] is not ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): ... like all of us.
Ms N N CHIRWA: The Minister gives loans to students ...
IsiZulu:
... umashonisa.
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No. Hon member, you must refer to the Minister in respectful terms. He's not a loan person who hands out loans only. Please, correct that.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Okay! Please provide us with ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you must withdraw what you said.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Minister Blade Nzimande ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No, you must withdraw what you said.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Oh! I withdraw. Thank you, Speaker.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Now, proceed. Order, hon members.
Ms N N CHIRWA: Minister, please provide us practical examples of how your department and the entities have responded to real-life challenges and the tangible benefits that have sufficed due to your intervention in the green economy, and also please kindly provide numerical evidence so that we can measure the impact of your intervention as opposed to the money that is spent in this regard. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Chair ...
IsiZulu:
... umangabe uyofuna imali komashonisa ukukhokhela lawo matende othe uzowanika i-EFF phambi kokuthi ikuxoshe. Angiyena umashonisa mina.
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Hheyi wena, yeka, gcina ukuyenza lento oyenzayo manje phambi kwethu. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZESAYENSI NEMIKHUBA EQANJWE KABUSHA: Uzoxoshwa
... [Akuzwakali.] ... ukushonisa la kumina ngalamatende okufuneka uyowakhokhela umholi wakho ngoba uzolahlekelwa yithuba la.
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Uzoboshwa wena ngoba uyaganga.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, please address me in your response. Would you rather address me instead of pointing to another member?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: My
apologies.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Let me see why that hon member has her hand up, hon Minister. Yes, hon member?
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Somlomo, nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo: Ngibonge, Somlomo, ngokukhulu ukuhlonipha, angazi ngoba umhlonishwa lo sisuka naye KwaZulu-Natal, umuntu okhipha imali ngoba leyo mali uyikhokhisa abantu, umashonisa. IsiZulu esicacile leso, ayikho inhlamba lapho. Ungumashonisa ngoba njengoba ekhipha imali yokufunda, uma usuqedile ukufunda ... [Akuzwakali.] ... akuyona inhlamba, ungumashonisa.
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I have ruled on this matter. Please take your seat. Order! Hon Minister, do you wish to reply to the question that was asked by the hon Chirwa? Before all the other things came into it, there was a question that was asked. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: The
question by hon Chirwa?
The ACTING SPEAKER: Yes.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION:
Unfortunately, I didn't understand what hon Chirwa was saying.
You are talking about e-life skills. We're not talking about e-life skills here. The question is talking about the just transition, about technologies, and all that I've outlined. I am not surprised. She is looking for mashonisas [loan sharks] to buy these tents ...
IsiZulu:
... ngoba uzoxoshwa la ePhalamende.
English:
So ... [Inaudible.] ... Thanks, very much. I am more than willing, hon Speaker, for the member to clarify her question, not now but after the question session so that I can also be able to assist.
IsiZulu:
Futhi ngimkhombise umashonisa oseduze, hhayi lo oyimina.
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER: Order, hon members. Order! Hon member of the EFF, you are allowed to make interjections, but you are not allowed to do what you are doing now. Please respect the Rules.
Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Acting Speaker and Hon Minister, some cups of coffee have been suggested today. I listened to you closely, and I wonder if you could not maybe invite the Minister of Health for a cup of coffee about entrepreneurship for young graduates, and then maybe the Minister of Energy about energy solutions for South Africa.
But I like what you say about the green economy, and I just want to confirm one thing, which I hope you have the information on hand, and that is, has an agreement been reached with the community of Richtersveld about the Boegoebaai development, which is central to the green hydrogen development roadmap? Thank you, hon Speaker.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND INNOVATION: Hon
Speaker, I may not be able to answer the specifics on local economic development in Boegoebaai. All I'm willing to say is that Boegoebouw is one of the areas that we have identified as a country, working with the Northern Cape government under the leadership of Premier Saul, has one huge potential for the production of hydrogen fuel cells, not only for South Africa but also to export it to the rest of the world. Our government's policy is that where we are having local economic
development, there must be a benefit for the local communities. I may not be able to answer you specifically to say it's going to be in this area or that area, because I wasn't expecting that, but just like we do, as you know, with the Square Kilometre Array, lots of school kids in Carnarvon, they visit that, we excite them in science. There is also local job creation that is happening there.
So, where there are these huge developments that are also informed by science, we also use them for skills development and local economic development, and I am sure that Boegoebaai is not going to be different. Thank you very much, Speaker.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, Hon Minister. I've been informed there's a member who's got his hand up on the virtual platform, the hon Papo. Hon Papo?
Mr A H M PAPO: Speaker, on a point of order: I wanted to check. You had made a ruling on the matter of the derogatory term which was used against Dr Nzimande, and then the member stood up and violated that ruling by repeating what member Chirwa had said, and then I'm not sure whether by sitting down is she going to withdraw, because she deliberately violated
your ruling and repeated what you had ruled on, and then sat down. Previously you have made it clear that when there's a ruling made, members must not surreptitiously violate rulings by repeating what the member had said, which was unparliamentary. That's the issue I wanted to get. It is that issue that passed while my hand was up.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, we've moved on. We've moved on past that point ... [Interjections.]
Mr A H M PAPO: My hand was up.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): ... other supplementary question. You are correct. But the Rules state, and unfortunately you are on the virtual platform, I was only alerted a lot later than after I dealt with the matter that the point of order must be taken immediately. I will now proceed to the next question, Question 105.
I will once again ask members just to respect the Rules of the House. All these types of insults and other things that we are trading here won't win you votes. The electorate is not interested in that. That's the least of their concerns at the
moment, there are more serious issues that they are occupied with. Hon Manyi?
Mr M MANYI: Speaker, on a point of order: I'm raising a point of order to you, Speaker, that when we on this side are raising points of order, sometimes you don't even allow a person to finish, this other person here, hon Papo, had a long-winded thing. You gave him all the time to say whatever he wanted to say. Why don't the same situation get ...
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr M MANYI: ... you see now? That’s my point. Why is the same situation not given to us?
The ACTING SPEAKER: Hon Member, please take your seat. Do you wish to Chair the session from where you're sitting? Do you want to Chair it from there? Because, unfortunately, you do not have that authority, right? It will not be there, and it is the prerogative of the Presiding Officer that, as a member raises a point of order, or, as you frequently call it, a point of privilege, that when we realise it's not a point of order, then I'll tell you it's not a point of order, right?
Your members have also raised points of order, and they were allowed to ventilate them. So, please, let's not go down that way. When you have a problem with it, take it to the Rules Committee. In the meantime, we'll proceed to Question 105 which has been asked by the hon Nodada to the Minister of Basic Education.
Question 105:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, Acting Speaker, over the 2024 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTF, the department is planning to build 2 339 classrooms and 51 new schools. The modalities, which are going to be used are your usual brick-and-mortar, alternative technology, but also, we’ve moved into a phase where we’re working with communities to work under supervision to also, create most classes.
However, the department is mainly focusing especially on overcrowding, with two provinces that are experiencing major internal and external in-migration, but also, is focusing on cities that are also overwhelmed by rapid urbanisation such as Polokwane, Cape Town, Durban, Kimberly, East London, Johannesburg and Pretoria. Ready to deal with overcrowding.
Based on our capital and our plans, we're estimating that we need 71 000 extra classes, which would cost us R4 billion and
our current finances not allowing us to be able to deal or insufficient to help us to eradicate overcrowding at the time required, or with the speed required to do sanitation inappropriate and also, to really maintain our schools. So as a department, we are exploring other sources of funding such as a budget facility for infrastructure and public partnership. We also have developed a 10-point plan through which we're looking at how we can improve efficiencies on our system. Our CM has approved the strategy which, amongst others, is going to work on developing minimum standards for school designs. A cost of model, and again, we hope that we’ll be able to make savings which will enable us to deal with our ongoing infrastructure challenges. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr B B NODADA: Thank you, Acting Speaker. Minister, just yesterday I visited Modilati Secondary School in Hammanskraal where three learners are forced to share a desk in dilapidated mobile classrooms that were erected 10 years ago as a temporary measure. Yet, they are still there. Their library has been turned into a staffroom and computer lab worth millions left dysfunctional. Children at this school are forced to use mobile toilets with a strong stench of faeces
similar to pit toilets, because ablution facilities are not built. Has your Department of Education engaged with the Western Cape regarding the innovative Rapid School Build programme that build sections C school in 65 days and Fisherhaven Academy 71 days added 788 additional classrooms to address overcrowding and is planning to continue expanding quality education facilities? Will you be using this innovative method that is far cheaper, quicker, and efficient to eradicate pit toilets, muddiness asbestos schools and build libraries and labs? If not, why not? Thanks Chair.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: No, Chair, I have not denied the fact that we have major infrastructure challenges. I’ve just mentioned the figure that we need from our estimation that we need about 71 000 classrooms at the cost of
44 billion. But on the why not part or what? I can assure you, Chair, that I am aware of all the different innovations done by different province. I speak regularly with the MEC for Western Cape to also admire the work that they do. I speak with Gauteng where they are giving communities, your local builders to build classes and it comes out cheaper. So, we are aware of the whole and as a sector, not as a section of the Western Cape. As a sector, we’re working together and share
experiences for the good of the nation. If there’s something good in Western Cape, we work with it. If there’s something good in Gauteng, we work on it. So, I’m a Minister of a nation, not of Western Cape. So, ...
IsiXhosa:
...uNodada angahlala eNtshona Kapa kodwa ndiyayazi into yaseNtshona Kapa.
English:
Ms M L MOROANE: Thank you very much, Acting Speaker and thank you, hon Minister, for the insightful response you have just given us. Overcrowding is a situation which arises as a result of multiple factors and over the period of the democratic government, the government has built many new schools, including the state-of-art schools, upgraded infrastructure of existing schools and eradicated mud classes across the country. What is the impact of internal migration, the capacity of schools which receive learners and of schools which lose learners to other schools in different locations? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, Chair. Hon member is quite correct that your internal migration and external migration are putting an unbearable pressure on other provinces and other towns. I have mentioned areas that we have, ... because also of rapid urbanisation. When we count our stock in our learners, we have enough classes. However, the problem with rapid urbanisation classes in all townships and rural areas are remaining empty. As a result, we have to build classes where new communities develop. For the first time in 30 years, people are free, and there is a freedom of movement. They can move to Polokwane. They can move to the kwaMogwadi ... [Inaudible.] ... certain code and go to Polokwane. Therefore, that puts a new pressure.
So, we have enough stock, but it’s stuck in wrong places and that’s why we have this unending problem. But we are really trying all we can as she correctly says. We are building state-of-the-art schools. We are making sure that those classes, those train classrooms I went into and the mud
classes that we inherited ... We did not bring mud classes. In homelands, there has never been a school built for African kids by the government. Communities had to build their own schools. We’re dealing with those backlogs. In the township
there were never classes that were built by the state for people. People had to build their schools. So, we had to provide for new infrastructure, we had to deal with the backlog that we inherited, which is massive, Chairperson. Thank you very much.
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Chairperson, I will take it, Madlingozi, Minister, as you have stated here and now, there is a notable movement of parents and children from rural areas to urban areas in search of livelihood. This obviously puts pressure on urban schools to accommodate an ever-growing number of learners in need of school. Do you have a proof that you have tackled this problem, especially in those areas?
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulela.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WESEBE LEZEMFUNDO ESISISEKO: Tatu Madlingozi, ...
isikolo ndivuka, nditya sona.
English:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: We have evidence. We have information because we monitor on an ongoing basis. As the department, my function is to monitor the system. So, I know where pressures are. I know where the movements are, but also the other thing which members are also not aware of. We inherited a system where kids were not progressing beyond primary schools. In the township, we have five primary schools feeding to one high school. Now, we’re able to retain more learners to go into high schools and we have a higher retention rate. We also have a pressure. It’s not only movements, but it’s the fact that the system is retaining more learners to go into high schools. Then we’re experiencing pressures because we can’t say go back home, we don’t have a place. We have to find space for children. But I can assure the member that these figures are not thumb sucked. I monitor every Friday what is happening on the infrastructure part because it is a big challenge for us as a sector because it affects the quality of the work that we do. Thank you very much, Chair.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Acting Speaker, I will take the Question for hon Ngcobo.
IsiZulu:
Mama uNgqongqoshe, mina ngiyakuzwa konke lokhu. Okunye kukhona kwenzekile futhi...
English:
...we appreciate it.
IsiZulu:
Kodwa imvelo iya nayo ikuhlukumeza ngoba izikole eziningi ziyaphephuka. Ziphephukile kufanele wena ugijime ke ulandele imvelo. Uma sikhumbula nje kwaZulu-Natal kunezikole eziningi ezihlephukile. Kukhona nesinye okuthiwa yiZamimpilo esezingane eziphila nokukhubazeka. Zonke lezo zikole izingane zakhona zisemakhaya njengamanje. Ngakho ngiyafisa ukuthi ngizwelane nawe mama ukuthi kuwo wonke lo mshikashika kodwa kukhona nalemvelo okudingeka ukuthi siyibone sisonke ukuthi imvelo iphambene nathi. Angazi noma yithi esonile. Ngiyafisa ukwazi ukuthi uNgqongqoshe uzogijima kanjani ngengqalasizinda ngoba izingane ziphandle.
English:
Thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EYISISEKELO: Ngibonga kakhulu ngombuzo futhi yonke le nto oyikhulumayo ngivumelana nayo. futhi ngaphezu kwalezi zinkinga esinazo nezikole ezazakhiwa umphakathi uzakhela, zingekho esimeni esiqinile uma kuza imvelo, iyazithutha. hhayi KwaZulu-Natal kuphela kodwa NaseMpumalanga Koloni ezakhiwe...
English:
...on wrong weather lines...
IsiZulu:
... iyazishaya nazo. NaseLimpopo uma uza umoya uthatha izikole. Yonke indawo sinezikole ezithathwe umoya okufanele sibuyele emuva futhi siyozilungisa. Njengoba ngisho nje ngaphezulu kwemvelo, nezikole esifike zikhona besithi yizikole eziqine kahle ezikwazi ukuthi uma kukhona isimo esibi somoya zingaphephuki ziyonke indawo. Njengoba ngisho nje ukuthi izikole zezinhlekelele zemvelo, izikole eseziziwela zodaka, yizikole njengoba ngisho esinye nje saseNatali sasakhiwe phezu komfula abalungu eminyakeni engamashumi nesishiyagalombili eyadlula. Lo mfula wangena wahamba nesikole sonke. Ngakho, yenye yezinkinga ezenza ukuthi sihlukumezeke kakhulu ngento
yengqalasizinda. Njengoba nje ngisho uLwesihlanu noLwesihlanu siyahlala ngehora lesikhombisa sixoxe indaba yengqalasizinda ngoba ngempela akuwona nomshikashika ingxaki enkulu. Inkinga enkulu esinayo esizama ngakho konke ukuthi siyilungise ngezindlela ezahlukene.
Bese ngicacisile, mhlawumbe ngizoshiywa yisikhathi. Ngizicacisile izinyathelo esizama ukuzithatha sibone ukuthi sisizana kanjani. Sisebenza nomkhakha wangasese sicela izikole, umphakathi nawo ucelwa usizo lokuthi wakhe. Sicela iminikelo, ngoba inkinga nje into yengqalasizinda emkhakheni wethu. Futhi iyawuthinta umsebenzi wethu kakhulu ngoba uma izingane ziziningi zihlezi zintathu edeskini ngengoba asho nje uMhlonishwa uNodada, kubanzima nje ukuthi zikwazi ukubhala kahle, zifunde kahle, zikhululeke kodwa ayikho into esingayenza, ngeke sithi hlalani ekhaya ayikho indawo.
English:
Ms M S KHAWULA: Sorry Chairperson, with your permission point of correction.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, what do you want to correct?
IsiZulu:
Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga.
English:
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising hon member?
Ms M S KHAWULA: Sorry, Chairperson...
IsiZulu:
...ngemvume, akukhona eNatali, kukwaZulu-Natali, leli leNatali saliqeda ngesikhathi sobandlululo.
English:
Thank you very much.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Please take your seat.
Question 91:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Acting Speaker, the question is in relation to the G F Jooste Hospital here in Cape Town. Now, this hospital, hon members, was decommissioned in 2013, because it was felt that it was no more suitable for the
services which it was meant to provide. Subsequent to that, patients were moved. Many of them were moved into Mitchells Plain Hospital, which had just been completed. Therefore, some of the services were also diverted to the nearby community health centre, the Heideveld Community Health Centre, especially the accident and emergency services, because the G F Jooste Hospital from the beginning when it was started, it was mainly focusing on accident and emergency and, you know, medical services, but also, for instance, excluded maternity and also children services. Therefore, the services were then diverted.
However, at the same time the Western Cape province was still committed at the time. What was envisaged at the time was that a new hospital would be erected from that time. At that time, it was envisaged that it will be completed as early as 2019.
However, that has taken time. Therefore, there have been also upgrading other facilities in the area, such as the Hanover Park Community Health Centre, CHC. Also, some work is going on at the Nyanga, there’s particular budget which has been committed Gugulethu. Gugulethu is also under a lot of pressure because it’s got a lot of, you know, clients very busy, and it’s also in a confined area where it’s not very easy to
upgrade and expand. However, the province is looking for an alternative site.
Equally so, there are a number of other areas where there is work going on in terms of ensuring that more services can be provided. Therefore, at this stage, the province is still committed to building a new hospital. A site has been identified, and once the necessary financial resources are available, they will be able to start because the planning part of the new hospital has already been completed.
Therefore, that is the state of affairs in as far as the alternative services following the decommissioning of this particular hospital, hon Acting Speaker. Thank you very much.
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Acting Speaker, through you to Minister, what happened to the projected cost of stage 1 of
R2,2 billion. Is the money spent? If yes, how, if not, why?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Acting Speaker, to my information the actual cost as I’ve mentioned that the planning in terms of your professional services, designers, engineers were appointed, and they have done the work, it’s almost complete in terms of the design phase. In terms of what the hon member
is looking at of the cost, I would imagine actually if the figure which she is quoting of just over R2 million ... [Interjections.] ... billion? Oh, I thought you were saying a million. Well, I would have to investigate that because it’s unheard of, I mean that R2 billion would not even be a cost of a district hospital. I mean we are building a number of district hospitals just from complete cost. At least a regional hospital or even a tertiary hospital could be in the region just knowing how much we are spending currently on a number of major hospitals.
Therefore, I’m quite certain that the hon member might have got it wrong, in terms of a R2 billion on professional services, it’s unheard of and we will go back and investigate that. However, usually I mean at the most in terms of that, that would be, as I say, a complete cost of a completely new facility, and the professional cost at the most at the highest level would be about 14% of the cost of the project.
Therefore, that number is quite unlikely, but I’m sure the hon member got it somewhere and she can provide me with the source, but I’ll also go back and investigate.
However, as far as I can assure the House is that that service of design and engineering, I’ve been informed by the province that is complete and they are currently just finalising the issues of the new site approval and so that they can then be able to procure services for the construction.
Mr N V XABA: Thank you Minister, for the detailed response and providing numeric, numbers are a problem somewhere. Minister, the question to me is that clinics are a critical layer of our health facilities as they’re closest to the people and addresses the ongoing health needs of communities. We further welcome the fact that a number of our clinics operate 24 hours a day. How many clinics will be completed this year, and which areas will receive these facilities? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, hon Acting Speaker and hon member. I couldn’t agree more with the hon member that, indeed, as we always emphasise, that the primary health services are the cornerstone of the provision of health services. Therefore, we’re putting a lot of resources and working with all our colleagues in all the nine provinces in making sure that we can one make sure that clinics are at least at the maximum within accessible within five-kilometre
radius that no community should travel more than five kilometres to reach a clinic.
In the event where there might be small numbers because as you know, especially in our villages, sometimes very small number of people in that case at least there must be a mobile service closest which visit that community. However, not only do we make sure that there is access in terms of proximity, but also we’re focusing on quality and that’s why we have a programme called the Ideal Clinic Realisation and Maintenance Programme to which we are making sure that all clinics must be able to reach a minimum standard through which all the key milestones can be achieved in those clinics, and we work with provinces. The only thing which I can say to the hon member is that I don’t have the actual numbers on my fingertip in terms of how many will be completed in the 2023-24, and also in the 2024- 25.
What I can assure the hon member is that we provide support in terms of those areas which are identified as our National Health Insurance, NHI, pilot districts, 11 of them in the country. We even give direct support from the conditional grant. However, also in terms of the infrastructure
revitalisation grant, we also support provinces. That’s over and above the fact that in the equitable share of provinces, they also have to make provision for new clinics, but also for upgrading. Therefore, we work concurrently with the provinces in support to make sure that we can improve the quality and access to primary health services.
Mrs M O CLARKE: Acting Speaker, through you to Mr Minister, the past financial year, the office of health standards compliance, OHSC, has regressed in the number of facilities evaluated against its set targets. Furthermore, the ideal clinic status of 69,8% of hospitals had submitted an assessment was unsatisfactory given the budget cuts and the fact that public health facilities do not meet minimum norms and standards. What measures has the department put in place to ensure that communities are provided with quality health care in the time between hospitals being decommissioned and new facilities being built in the area, and when will the government ensure that all capital expenditure is directly financed and controlled by health care facility administrator to avoid fraud and corruption? I thank you, Mr Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, firstly, just in terms of the issue of decommission, this is not a regular thing that we decommission hospitals, it’s only in the extreme. We prefer a situation where wherever possible that the upgrading must be done at the existing facility, because that’s where in most cases, unless if you can be able to find a very adjacent site where a new facility can be constructed, because most of the time people are used to accessing those facilities where they exist. Therefore, we prefer most of the time to upgrade where they exist.
In terms of making sure that those financial resources are actually implemented by health sector itself, it’s a mixed bag historic and it’s also regulated as you would see that most of the provinces would either have public works as the implementing agent, although the budget is allocated to help, they would have it as an implementing agent, the Department of Public Works and quite often there is a lot of delays in terms of those implementation. That’s why others have also gone to other implementing agencies, such as the Development Bank, Coega and Independent Development Trust, IDT, also gets roped in from time to time to make sure that they can be able to implement where they have agreement with the province.
However, what we also encourage is the fact that within health departments themselves, there must be some technical capacity so that there must be people who understand infrastructure so that they can monitor even when you appoint an implementing agent.
In terms of meeting minimum standards like ideal clinic and ideal hospital, it is work in progress. We are trying to make sure that it’s going to be fast-tracked and accelerated. I’m very pleased that as hon members would remember just over two weeks ago when the Minister of Finance announced the budget, he did also indicate that over the medium-term it will be R27 billion ... allocated. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr P A VAN STADEN: Acting Speaker, the Deputy Minister said I mustn’t ask difficult questions. Therefore, I’ll start with the easy ones. Hon Minister, can you indicate to this House what is the status of a new Limpopo Central Hospital which is located near Peter Mokaba Stadium in Polokwane where construction started in July 2023, and can you give us an indication of how far this project is from completion and whereby hospitals still be completed on time as planned in December 2026. Thank you.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, in line with my previous ruling, this is a new question that you’re asking now because this question of the hon Thembekwayo specifically refers to the G F Jooste Hospital as well as the areas of Klipfontein, Manenberg, Gugulethu and Nyanga. Hon Minister, is there anything you would like to add to the primary question that was asked, but this is a new one.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, hon Acting Speaker, I’m happy to take the question.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, I also want to ensure, Minister, that you can reply, but I want to be consistent that if I rule certain questions as being new questions, then we must not venture into the area of allowing new questions at the same time. You can briefly respond, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Acting Speaker, I’m happy to take the question of my opponent and friend, hon Van Staden. Just to say that, indeed, hon members, we are very proud of the fact that ultimately, after many years of aspiration, that you know our teaching hospitals must also reach even your
marginalised provinces. Limpopo has been one of those which have never had a medical school or even when the medical school was started it was regional hospitals which were used for training. Therefore, now that process as hon Van Staden indicated, we went to initiate on Mandela Day on 18 July last year. It’s progressing extremely well, and I’m pleased that the local leaders at the municipal level, at the province level, business people and traditional leaders, we don’t have problems of disruptions of 30% or any 10% or anything.
When we initiated the programme, we met with everybody including the traditional leaders and that has paid dividends because the project is moving very well. The updates which I’m getting on a regular basis indicate that the targeted completion because it’s a big hospital, that’s why I was able to raise issues with the hon member earlier on, that’s now a big teaching hospital with various facilities which will cost just over R3 billion. It’s progressing well. We believe that it will be completed on budget and on time. The targeted period because of its magnitude is in the next four years in 2028, that it should be completed. Therefore, I can assure members that at this stage we have nothing to worry, that project is proceeding very well. Thank you very much.
Question 74:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Speaker, thank you, very much to hon Adams for this important question.
Speaker, I have on numerous occasions indicated that government resources are not enough to meet the demands of sport and recreation sector at all levels. This reality has resulted in me, on several occasions, engaging corporate South Africa and through various platforms I have made a call to all of them to join and support the development of sport in the country. When engaging corporate South Africa, I do not necessarily focus on specific sporting codes, in this case being football. I advocate for a case of sport in general. For an example, on 17 August 2023, last year, I had a session with various corporates to engage them on the importance of their involvement in the development of sport. This session includes. Nedbank, MTN, Red Bull, Sasol, Spar, Standard Bank and Ithuba National Lottery in Johannesburg.
These engagements include also, the broadcasting sector, which has a significant role in contributing resources much needed for the development and professionalization of sport. The department also in this regard, engage SA Football Association, Safa on this matter. Safa indicated that while
there is a clear framework for attracting sponsors, however, there is a limited appetite in supporting the development of football from many corporates. Fortunately, Safa has noted that the betting companies have shown interest in sponsoring football programmes. Thank you, very much, Chair.
Ms R C ADAMS: Hon Chair, Minister, soccer is a major sport economic sector which sustains livelihoods, particularly in developed countries with a high soccer culture like the United Kingdom, Germany, France. Countries in the Middle East and Asia are also investing significantly in soccer with major superstars playing in the leagues. My question is, Minister, how many soccer leagues support sustainable livelihoods beyond the Premier Soccer League, PSL and what support is required to increase the sense of sustainability of soccer and the sport economic size? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, let me
thank hon Adams again for the question. Safa is structured in terms of 52 regional members. At the lowest level, we have not less than 343 local football associations. To mention but few, for an example, on women, you have Hollywood Bets at Super League, of about 16 teams and on Sasol League, we have about
18 teams. But they are enablers, hon Adams, that you need to order to optimize this issue about participation of the leagues and their contribution. For an example, you need sporting infrastructure, stable leadership and you need governance. These are the enablers.
Sponsors look for certain things as well for them to contribute. They look for mileage, transformation and governance. I have always mentioned this issue when I deal with federations that for any sponsor or investor to come in, they look for three things, leadership, stability in the Federation and governance. Without these three you are not likely to have any impact. Thank you, very much.
Ms A M VAN DYK: Chairperson, millions of South African sport lovers would like to follow their various sport codes on national TV but cannot do so because of ongoing load shedding. The dispute over broadcasting rights between Safa and the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC will further contribute to a lack of access for particularly poor people to watch the sports they love. Unless how soon can Safa secure broadcasting rights with alternative broadcasters given the failure to reach an agreement with SABC.
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Although the primary question had nothing to do with the load shedding but what we have been dealing with, which we are working on, is to convene that conversation about sporting rights because the issue is not just about football. It is about sporting rights in the country. As you know that there are issues about monopoly that we must deal with because SABC on its own, is dealing with a lot of these issues.
We are worried about the ability of many South Africans to be able to watch the sport of their choice and therefore the exclusion - you know that we intervened in France, we intervened on Bafana Bafana, working also with my colleague, Minister Gungubele. So, that issue is a concern of us. I do not think that it is a matter that we will continue to engage on. Without dealing with monopoly, you will not be able to deal with that issue. Thank you very much.
Mr E MTHETHWA: Minister, I am not sure whether you are grappling with the environment you find yourself in. I am happy that you are speaking about consulting. But I do not hear the voice from the private sector giving the reasons they are not coming through? You speak as if you are speaking alone
to the private sector, and yet you are not giving us the reason why the corporate sector is not sponsoring generally, the sector. What is the reason exactly? Can you tell us?
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, I am not sure
if the hon member was listening to my primary answer. I have explained that. That mainly there are multiple factors that a sponsor will look at. For an example, any sponsor will look for what is it that is in there for me. It is important that for a sponsor. But important as well, is an issue about performance. If you see for example, some of the federation and national teams, they have got huge sponsors because of their performance. So, the lesson you have is that some of our national teams must perform for me as a sponsor to make any contribution. I am making that just as an ordinary explanation. I thought the member will be aware of. Thank you.
Inkosi B N LUTHULI: Hon Minister, sport must not only be seen as a business where a few makes a profit while some clubs gaining an advantage. Bafana Bafana recent successors showcased that South Africa possesses talent across all provinces. I would like to know how the department has prioritized the private sponsors of the soccer clubs in the
rural areas where there is often a lack of proper playground and sport equipment?
IsiXhosa:
USIHLALO OBAMBELEYO (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Masiyibambe kuloo ndawo, uyivile uMphathiswa.
English:
The MINISTER OF SPORT, ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, I think we
answered this question when we hosted the School Sport Indaba.
We said, when we hosted the School Sport Indaba, mainly we cannot talk about grassroots sports development in this country, neglecting the need, for example, of rural sport development. We know that if you have to level the field in terms of sport, you need to make sure that, among others, you address the issue of rural sport development in areas such as Nongoma Local Municipality, uMhlabuyalingana Municipality Local Municipality and Centane because there is a raw talent there, but there is no infrastructure. That is the point I made about enablers. For those enablers you need sport infrastructure in rural communities for us to achieve.
Most of our national teams, for an example, you have the talent that comes from areas with no infrastructure whether you are talking about rugby, whether talking about cricket, you will see that there is one or two of the best players that come from areas with no infrastructure or poor infrastructure. The school sport’s core function, mainly, would focus on issues of rural sport infrastructure. Thank you.
Question 63:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, thanks to the hon member for the question regarding the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework allocation for the health sector, as announced by the Minister of Finance, and whether this will help in dealing with unemployed doctors. Just to put this into context for the hon members and the member, the R848 billion, which she has referred to, as announced by the Minister of Finance, is the total global allocation to the public health sector over the next three years, starting from the 2024-25 financial year to 2025-26 and 2026-27 financial years. That allocation includes all the equitable shares, starting from the national department and right up to all provinces. And that allocation also includes conditional grants. We must also remind ourselves that the allocation of the equitable share of
provinces, also includes all expenditure, such as goods and services, and conditions of employment.
Now, what was the problem? The problem was the reduction of allocations over time, due to financial constraints. It has not even met inflation. Provinces were finding it difficult to fill posts, as people leave the service, because of the constraints. It was specially made worse by the increase of 7,5% in the previous agreement.
So, what has the Minister announced additionally, over above the global picture? The global allocation is an additional amount of R3,7 billion for this year, and then also going into the next three years. This is specifically to assist with compensation of employees, to ensure that provinces don’t end up having to take funds from goods and services to fund what is a statutory requirement of compensation of employees.
With this assistance, just from 1 April 2024, and with provinces working with us, we are now working on unfreezing some posts that have been frozen, due challenge of the cost of employment. In doing so, we are also making sure that the
young people who qualify for medicine, nursing, pharmacy, and all other professions are increasingly being employed.
Just in terms of the focus on the medical side, we have been working with all provinces and with the two associated unions, of which one is called the South African Medical Association SAMATU, who have given us their data. We have compared that also with posts available in the provinces, which are now activated. I can say to the hon members that, working diligently with them, while following this on a weekly basis, all the provinces have now been able to advertise. They can also make sure that those who want to work in the public service apply. We are comparing notes on a weekly basis to see these are the post advertised, these are the list of people who we have who want to work in the public service. And we can check on a weekly basis, as interviews are happening, whether professionals are being appointed.
I can just say that, as a result of this, just as of yesterday, at least out of the just over 800 who had submitted their details, around 270 of those had already received appointment letters. So, this is going on. We are quite
certain that, by the end of March, most of, if not all who have indicated interest ... [Time expired.]
Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, I appreciate your response and it was quite informative and comprehensive. However, I would like to request specific information about the measures that the department put in place to ensure that this budget for employing unemployed doctors is utilised in a fair, effective, and efficient manner. I want to know the exact number of doctors that your department plans to hire in 2024-25 with the allocated budget for recruitment and the timeline for the recruitment. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, hon member, in terms of it being a fair process, I can assure the hon member that it is very transparent. Therefore, I have emphasised the fact that sometimes, some members of the public and sometimes even some hon members miss the point that when students finish in medicine, in nursing, in other fields, where there is intention as a statutory requirement, we as government are obliged to find opportunities for those and place them.
Therefore, we have a system of placements for interns and for community service.
It is a study requirement. They submit their details, we have worked together with provinces, identified the posts. We then allocate them to a hospital because it is a requirement that they must do it. Once they have completed all that and they are fully registered in what is called independent practice, they are free to go anywhere. They should compete.
So, that is the process that we are engaging on. The provinces are informing us about the vacancies. They must advertise them and then everyone has a choice to say, I want to go to Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital, I want to go to Tayler Bequest hospital and so on. They will then be considered, and we will submit their details and then ...
Ms N N CHIRWA: Chairperson, on a Point of Order: Yes, the question that is being asked is very important. How many doctors have you budgeted to employ in the year 2024-25? The Minister must answer that question.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please, take a seat. Please, take a seat. The Minister is answering the question and in the middle of that, you are interfering with
the Minister. Please, don’t do that. Please, don’t do that, hon Chirwa.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, I know this is not my area, but I’m answering hon Hlengwa. I wanted to assure her that it is fair and transparent. We are even working with the stakeholders and that is how we ensure that this is very transparent.
And beyond that, in terms of the question of how many, I have already indicated, we work with the associations. And unlike with interns, where you know so many graduates have completed, when people have registered for independent practice, you never know how many want to work in the public service.
Mr A MATUMBA: Chair, on a Point of Order: Hon Chirwa stood here in accordance with Rule 68 to say the speaker on the podium is irrelevant. Can you please give us a number. He is irrelevant. We want a number, not a ... [Interjections.] How many?
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please, please, take a seat. Please, take a seat. Please, take a seat. Hon
member, please, take a seat. I’m not going to repeat this again, hon members. You are disturbing the Minister, who is answering hon Hlengwa. It is not for him to satisfy you. He is still busy answering and there is only one presiding officer here.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, I would say with due respect that the hon members are displaying utmost ignorance of how the system works. I am explaining that it is not a statutory obligation and that they have the freedom to go anywhere when they are fully registered for independent practice. So, I will tell you we had 2 200 doctors who completed community service. We don’t know where they want to work after that. We don’t know because they are free and independent. What we then depend on is only when you advertise a post, and somebody submits and application. All the provinces have advertised over 1 100 positions. Those have been advertised. We don’t know how many takers. It is going to depend ... [Time expired.]
Mr S M DLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, thank you for protecting the speakers. The ANC government has expanded training for health practitioners in our various higher education institutions.
The government has further trained hundreds of doctors through the Nelson Mandela Fidel Castro partnership with the Cuban government. My question to the Minister: What is the alignment of the health skills development capacity with job market opportunities to avoid circumstances that lead to unemployment of health practitioners, who are in need for our health system? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, hon member, as a Department of Health, we work very closely with the training institutions, whether it be medical schools, other health sciences training institutions, or nursing colleges. So, we work very closely with them to monitor the intake and the output. For example, as a result of that, when some of the institutions complained that we send too many young people to Cuba to start learning Spanish, before they can even start to study medicine, we told them they must increase their uptake of young South Africans, because they were limited. And they’ve done so.
So, they have been able to increase almost all of them. We have also approved some new medical schools such Walter Sisulu University that has been there for some time. We have also
approved Limpopo and there are two others that we are currently considering, together with Minister Nzimande’s department.
However, as we do this, we also look at the needs in the country and we have, for instance, said to them that they need to also look at their curriculum. We have requirements and as I have mentioned earlier, we want to emphasise primary health care. So, part of the reason why we are very keen on the Cuban training programme is its strength in primary healthcare. So, we have challenged the local medical schools to not continue with this hospice-centric training and curative training, but to ensure they adapt to primary health care. Going forward, we want more doctors being able to work in communities and not only wait for people to come to hospitals. As they do in Cuba, we want to have an allocation to work in communities and families.
So, that is the way in which we want to align the skills, not only in terms of doctors but also nursing and other health professions. So, that is how we are aligning the skills needed and the training. Thank you very much.
Mrs M B HICKLIN: House Chair, Minister, the ANC constantly refers to itself as a caring government committed to the upliftment of all citizens in South Africa and using health care as the great leveller of the playing fields. And yet, it is the ANC government, the Department of Health, the Council for Higher Education, who has put into place unworkable regulatory barriers to prevent private institutions from becoming involved in training doctors and nurses, as discussed by Business Unity South Africa, Busa, with government for the past four years. When will the national Health Professions Bill be amended to allow medical students and nurses the option to complete their internship and community service in the private or public sector, thus ensuring the placement of all unemployed qualified doctors and nurses who are undergoing training in South Africa? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, you know that the private sector is not driven by equity. The private sector is driven by profit and one can see in terms of affording access that it is driven by profit. Now, if we then extend that to access to training, and if access to training is going to be determined by who can afford it, that will be disaster.
And as much as a lot of businesspeople want to venture into also getting licenses to train undergraduates, we have said that it will be a disaster, if we go that route. It must remain a public good. The training of health professionals must remain a public good, where even people from poor families can access those facilities.
Again, you would be aware that private institutions in terms of the current legislation – I’m sure that is what you want us to amend - must now be able to employ, because currently, they are not allowed, for instance, to employ doctors fulltime.
Again, that will be a major drain on the public sector, if we were to amend that. At the moment, we don’t have - you can check - a single postgraduate who have passed, who have not been able to be placed in the public health system for internship. They are all placed.
Equally so, in terms of community service, they are all placed to do their community service. As I explained earlier on, the only area where we had the struggle is in terms of those who have already completed, who now have done all their obligatory training.
So, I know that there is that clamour for the private sector to venture into areas of training health workers. There is some element of ... [Inaudible.] ... in colleges. We have had very worrying experiences also in that regard. So, we are really treading very cautiously in that area because we don’t want to exacerbate issues of inequality. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Mnr P A VAN STADEN: Agb Voorsitter, ek sal weer probeer.
English:
Hon Minister, while the country has a shortage of doctors, there are nearly 700 young doctors, that completed their internship, sitting at home waiting for a position at a public hospital. In the meantime, while this is happening, it is reported that doctors at the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital are working 120 hours overtime per month, to accommodate patients. What measures do you and your department have in place to see to it that money that is allocated for the appointment of doctors, is actually used for these appointments and not shifted and used, for example, to cover medicolegal claims. If there are no measures in place, what are the reasons for that? Thank you.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Minister, before you respond, you have a choice. There are two parts to that question and the follow-up is supposed to be one question. So, you will choose which one to answer.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, a I have mentioned earlier on, there is a very constructive working relationship with Treasury to help to deal with the workload and making sure that we can activate as many posts as possible, including at Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital. As the Minister announced and as seen in the MTBS, there was an amount of just over
R8 billion, which was also allocated to cover the additional 7,5% salary increase. This is in addition. However, this is ring-fenced as compensation of employees. As it goes out to provincial treasuries, they can shift it to any other activity except compensation of employees.
And as I have indicated, we are monitoring it regularly, working with all our provincial departments to make sure that we can get the data of how much has been spent and how many people have been employed. Therefore, we are quite certain that, because this is earmarked and that it is not a general equitable allocation, it will actually alleviate the pressure
of the workload, which the hon member has indicated. Thank you.
Question 75:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, hon members will recall that the teaching of arts is very critical to Basic Education system. It has been included by United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, Unesco to be part of science, technology, engineering and mathematics hence you know... [Inaudible.] 11:09 which includes arts. So, as part of restructuring and focusing on the Caps, our curriculum to respond to the specialised skills, knowledge and competencies required for the changing world, we have also included variety of out in that specialisation process.
We wish to remind members that in addition to the focus schools that you have, in your main cities like Johannesburg, Cape Town or in Pretoria, different provinces are launching art schools. The aim of launching these schools is to attract learner’s attention to arts as a subject and provide essential skills to enhance their capacity. It also aims to train them to trade either be as entrepreneurs or arts practitioners.
As the department we are also collaborating with the private sector and universities offering arts. We have a partnership with the Tshwane University of Technology in the Faculty of Arts and Design. We also work with different professionals in this area to support the work that we do as the department.
Further as the department, we are providing budgets to resource schools which had never had arts in their areas to support the challenges that are hindering the schools and learners to offer arts.
So, all provinces arrange annual exhibitions of their learners’ work to increase learner uptake and access the quality of work and the impact of the of the creative, innovative process of the arts has had on the learner’s work and can be clearly seen in different spaces. And it does. As I say, Chair, enhance even some of the areas. Even if you buy a car, you buy it also because of its beauty and not because of its engineering capacity. So, arts are very central in the science subject and that is why we are taking it very seriously to promote entrepreneurship and skills in this area. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr M A ZONDI: Hon Chair, the Minister’s comprehensive response is much more appreciated. Hon Minister, to promote the uptake of arts in our schools, we need to have sufficient educators to teach learners and inspire them to pursue the creative sector. It is a significant job creation and economic sector in the world. Now, hon Minister, do we have sufficient arts educator capacity within the education system or postgraduates Grade Nine to meet the market demands. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, indeed we are keen and very anxious to make sure that we promote the uptake of arts in our schools, and we have lots of programmes, as I said, including exhibitions. In terms of practitioners, which it is not an area which has been very common, though we already now have young teachers who were trained in arts schools at universities. But in the main, we are dependent on arts practitioners supporting our teachers in the teaching of us. On our side, it is to have an approved curriculum by Umalusi. That subject itself is recognized for university entrances or for university acceptance or for acceptance at institutions of higher learning. So, we are ready, mainly and that is why even our partnership must go with universities which have faculties, but on our own, we still are not
adequately resourced because it was major schools in Cape Town, Gauteng and Pretoria where they had schools of arts, but not very many towns have schools of arts. It is only now that we are facing it in different parts of the country because of its importance. The importance that you earn has place also on arts as part of science. Thank you very much.
Ms A M VAN ZYL: Hon Chair, Minister, while the ANC policy over the last 30 years has been to shut down the creative arts in schools. The DA in its plan to rescues South Africa, undertakes the diversification of the curriculum. Specialized arts academies like the Lady Grey Arts Academy in Lady Grey in the rural Eastern Cape, not Joburg, Cape Town or Pretoria, are so few and far in between that learners wanting to take up this stream of education need to leave home in pursuit of an education and the creative arts. Minister, what have you revised the curriculum to ensure that all learners developed creativity and innovation as critical skills, apart from just improving the uptake of art, which many schools do not offer as an option, how arts assessed and how many schools will offer art as a subject? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the fact that I did not mention all the towns does not mean that I do not recognize that the schools of arts were in between. I could list all of them. So, it is not... [Inaudible.] 02:09 to say Johannesburg or Pretoria, but there are very few in between. The question to say, what is it that we do? Maybe let me read the statement I read. The statement says:
As part of restructuring and refocusing of our curriculum...
So, we have restructured the curriculum, we had Umalusi to accredit even the courses, we are working with higher education to make sure that learners who take arts are also properly accredited to be able to pursue their studies. That is what I am saying. It is here in the curriculum, in the statement that I read.
To respond to the specialized skills, knowledge and competencies required for a changing world.
We have included a variety of art specialization in the process. So that is what I had read and that is what the member needs to understand.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon Minister. Before I ask hon Mashabela, I have a hand. What is that hand for hon member?
Mr E MTHETHWA: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I wanted to find out or to get clarity on the usage of the word art, because art is very broad, so it does not clearly indicate what type and form of art provided. It is an incorrect word.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you. Thank you. Please take a seat. I hope you have read the question because the question does not even do those things. That is not a point of order. Let us not rise on frivolous points of order, please. You are wasting our time.
Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Minister, creative arts, as a subject is almost non-existent in rural areas and schools. Some learners those schools do not know that creative arts and music is science itself, as you have alluded, Minister. A learner can
respond to music on an emotional level and the learner can still respond to music and appreciate it on an intellectual level. This science of studying things including art is non- existent, mainly because there is a shortage of teachers who have the content knowledge of the subject. What have you done, again? Proof, not in paper, to improve both the quality and quantity of teaching focusing on the creative arts, particularly in the rural areas.
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulela.
English:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, let me read again. I said, we have increased the number, our schools were increasing the number of schools to offer creative arts in a school and training teachers. We are fortunate that a number of universities have started producing qualified arts people for the sector, including the question, which was raised by default by Mr Singer, that we even have stated that qualified arts musical teachers train our children. So, to say what we have done not in paper, it is not every child who can do arts. It has to do with talent so, but that talent must be enhanced
by skills. Even artists themselves are even trained in entrepreneurship. That is why we train them also entrepreneurship on how to market their work, how to package their work as part of the development of artists who will come into the sector. It is a curriculum. It is with Umalusi, recognized by higher education. I do not know what else you do not want this as a paper. It must be on paper to be recognized. It cannot be in the air. It must be on paper. We are a formal system. You can go and sing in the street, and we recognize you but...
IsiXhosa:
... sifuna iphepha apha kuqala.
English:
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon Minister. Before I recognise hon Ngcobo, hon Radebe, your excitement must be translated unto the Table, please. Hon Ngcobo, you are recognised.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Chair, I will take it. Hon Minister, considering the prevailing challenges and opportunities presented by the state of arts education in South African
schools, particularly within the public school system, and given the societal misconception that art is not a viable career path. We appreciate because I am also an art teacher. We appreciate. Are there communication and awareness initiative that this department of yours Mama has undertaken to shift parental mindset towards recognizing the value of art as subject and dispelling stereotype associated with it? Thank you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EYISISEKELO: Ngibonga kakhulu
bengithemba ukuthi sizoqhubeka sikhulume ngesiZulu kodwa nami mangiphendule ngesiNgisi. Ngivumelana nawe kukho konke okushilo.
English:
What I also said is that we really work with the different faculties to assist with the advocacy in the arts and we conduct interviews and participating in the professional learning clusters to enhance awareness of the arts and instil interest in showing the value of arts. So, it is work that we are doing. It is also correct to say parents feel very uptight if they have a highly talented gifted child. They are worried
about the career opportunities if they only focus on arts and they would rather ask them to do arts and something else as a safeguard.
Up to now, sometimes it has been very difficult, especially for your written arts that young people find jobs and opportunities. But we have seen in other areas. South African actors have grown and become international figures and that is why we even trained them in advocacy, in packaging their wake, but also in networking, in the systems that they find themselves.
IsiZulu:
Kuhle ngikhulume nomuntu oyaziyo le nto. Hhayi, abanye bayaqagela nje bacabanga ukuthi uma ucula usubufundile uBuciko kanti lutho uyaziculela ngoba isipho sakho.
Question 128:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
The issue of the Lower Umkhomazi Bulk Water Supply ... is part of our decision as the ANC government to ensure water security in our country so that access to water which is a human rights issue, including the economic benefits, are not hindered on
the basis of no water security. This project is being implemented by uMngeni-uThukela Water Board. It is aimed at ensuring that we cover issues of water security in KwaZulu- Natal, especially for the communities of Ugu District Municipality and eThekwini Metro. It is aimed at unlocking the economic growth and access to water for those communities.
More than 100 000 beneficiaries are going to benefit from this water bulk system and it is estimated to cost us about
R6,1 billion. We plan to complete this project by December 2027, where water will flow, including its own benefits.
Currently, the project is divided into two phases. The issue of the raw bulk water system is phase one that has already commenced, where there's Ngwadini Abstraction, Ngwadini Off- Channel Storage Dam, Goodenough abstraction and Goodenough Dam, including the reservoirs. I'm pleased to indicate that that work is currently at different phases. The advanced work at Ngwadini is at 44% ... is at 93%. The Goodenough abstraction and the pump system is currently at 44% and the construction of the Off Channel Storage Dam in Ngwadini ... we just started with the construction in January 2024. By the end of July 2027 we would have completed this work.
Then ... the associated reservoirs. We want to say that we'll start with the commencement of the reservoirs by the period of November 2024 because it is secondary infrastructure. That is our response, your excellency, Chairperson.
Mr S J MOORE: From the available information by the Department of Water and Sanitation, the Lower Umkhomazi Bulk Water Supply Scheme project was originally due to have been completed by March 2022, with current estimates from uMngeni-uThukela Water having the completion date for the project now around 2032-33,
10 years late.
As is usual with the ANC, nothing runs on time and everything is overbudget. However, Deputy Minister, on Sunday, the 4th of February this year, the Minister met with residents of Verulam because they and many parts of the ANC-run eThekwini have not had water for weeks and months at a time because your municipality somehow manages to lose 60% of the water pumped to it by uMngeni-uThukela. This has been going on for years and nothing serious has been done about it. The Minister committed to residents that the given date for all of these challenges to be resolved is the 15th of February. No effort would be spared to resolve these water supply challenges.
Guess what? Three weeks later and there is still no water, but that's the ANC for you. Never short of a lie but always short on service delivery. Just yesterday it was reported that firefighters struggled to extinguish a fire at a furniture factory in Verulam due to a lack of water because the same area that you said would have water still doesn't. Tragically, three people died in that fire because the ANC can't keep the water on.
Please, can you confirm whether, had the department completed the project on time and on budget, eThekwini would not be facing the current ANC-inflicted water shortages, and if this is so, does the ANC government accept responsibility for the misery it has inflicted on the residents in eThekwini who have no water?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
Unfortunately, this member is stooping so low, even at the expense of the people that have perished in a fire incident. As the ANC-led government, we convey our condolences. We will never play politics and ... ideological issues around the question of water. The very same issue of this bankrupt political organisation ... they don't appreciate that in their
own municipality they run, which is Tshwane where we stay, more than 34 people actually perished on the basis of poor governance and poor delivery by the water service authority. Call the City of Tshwane.
Mr M MANYI: Point of order, Chair.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Deputy Minister, please take a pause. Hon Manyi, what's the point of order?
Mr M MANYI: The EFF is not bankrupt. The Minister can't make
... [Inaudible.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): That's not the point of order. Please sit down, hon Manyi. That's not a point of order. Please sit down. Hon Deputy Minister, please proceed.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
Well, hon Manyi just chooses to be ignorant. I never spoke about the EFF. I'm speaking about the DA here.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please proceed, hon Deputy Minister. I heard you correctly.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
Thank you very much. This is a new question and this member knows the rules. He must never throw stones in a glasshouse.
The situation in eThekwini is being attended to. As a Ministry, working with the Minister of Finance and working with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, as we have spoken the issue of water security
... You have the bulk water supply system from Lower Umkhomazi that is currently happening because we have actually brought all major projects that were delayed back on track, including the Upper Umkhomazi ... where we have actually made a decision, including that we have finalised agreements, so that there is no problem of water security.
The issues around water service-delivery failures and issues of water losses is not the problem of eThekwini Metro alone. A number of municipalities in our own country, even those run by other political parties, are losing between 40 to 50% of water. As a Ministry, we are very focused to ensure that South Africans get a reliable supply of water services without fail. We do agree that we have been on the ground, especially in KwaXimba and other areas because when there are problems we
don't shy away and we don't speak from a distance in resolving the issues of our people ...
IsiZulu:
... abantu baseThekwini nezindawo zamaphethelo kulo ...
English:
... we will be able to bring water as promised. Thank you.
Mr M R MASHEGO: Having known that the uMngeni Water Board has indeed been repurposed and re-established, and therefore the uMkhomazi Bulk Water Supply project as it is, has started to do its work properly, how many people have been employed in the categories of women, youth and people with disability, and how many service providers have benefitted from the project according to the above categories, with the board of uMngeni Water having been repurposed?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
Chair, I will indicate that I don't have the figures at hand right now. Hon Mashego, who's also our chairperson of the portfolio committee, will provide you with the figures. What we can indicate is that this project, as indicated earlier,
will benefit more than 100 000 beneficiaries. A total of
100 000 beneficiaries will have access to clean water that is reliable but at the very same time it will unlock economic opportunities because KwaZulu Natal ... when you look around the Ugu District and eThekwini as our tourism hub ... but also a number of other activities that are happening there. We will be able to do that. You're correct, our implementing agent uMngeni-uThukela has a new board and there was a smooth transition around the reconfiguration of the board with a strong technical capacity and a strong balance sheet, as we know in terms of good governance.
In terms of our directive, we want to confirm that we have directed that 40% of the work that is happening there must go to women and 20% will be accessed by young people. However, we will also provide skills opportunities for enterprise development. It will also provide technical skills before, during and post construction in the management of the infrastructure. There will also be the issue of localisation because local people must benefit from the R6,1 billion. That is a direct investment in terms of the issue of infrastructure roll-out in that particular part of KwaZulu-Natal.
Ms L H ARRIES: In the light of recent tragic events surrounding the Lower Umkhomazi Bulk Water Supply project, including the murder of councillor Molefe ... [Inaudible.] ... provide assurance regarding the safety ...
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon member, I don't know but I don't think the Deputy Minister can hear you.
Please move closer to the microphone.
Afrikaans:
Me L H ARRIES: Julle wil nie hê ek moet praat nie. Nou sal ek praat.
English:
In the light of recent tragic events surrounding the Lower Umkhomazi Bulk Water Supply project, including the murder of councillor Molefe, could you please provide assurance regarding the safety measures being implemented to protect those involved in the project’s execution. Additionally, what steps are being taken to address the concerns raised by community members and officials regarding the project's impact on local communities?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
We can't ascribe the unfortunate passing away of the councillor to this particular incident and I can assure you
... [Inaudible.] Chairperson, should I proceed?
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please proceed.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
I was also indicating that we do have a new phenomenon around the question of vandalism of infrastructure and issues of extortion, especially led by so-called construction mafia. We are very pleased that His Excellency the President, the Minister of Police and the entire security cluster and Ministers in the economic cluster are working very closely with the task team that is looking at the vandalism and extortion, especially that which has emanated from KwaZulu Natal and other parts of our country. We have agreed that we should work very closely with communities and organised business at a local level to ensure that we are able to deal with this new phenomenon of the killing of people and the vandalism of infrastructure.
In addition, our water services authorities, including our own implementing agent and water boards, do have security plans.
These security plans have been vetted or actually approved by the security cluster so that we are able to curb this. We know that there have been instances where people have been killed either in eThekwini, whether in uMngeni, whether the water board here in Johannesburg which is Rand Water. These are some of the unfortunate incidents that all of us must be able to stand up to and put a stop to.
As I indicated earlier on, our position as the ANC government in terms of the promotion of economic development for locals, will have set aside the 30%, not for those that will want the money and go away ... so that they are able to participate, grow their entities, develop particular skills ... [Inaudible.] ... to participate in our economy.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Hon Minister, the construction of the Lower Umkhomazi Bulk Water Supply project was proposed by uMngeni Water as a means to increase the assurance of water supply for the existing Upper and Middle South Coast supply area.
However, earlier this year, areas such as Ward 99 experienced severe water outages as a result of the nonsupply from uMngeni Water and secondary flood damages to a 1 200 millimetre steel pipe in the Umlilo River.
I would like to know what assurance you can provide to the people living in this area that the management of the Lower Umkhomazi Bulk Water Supply will be better than that of uMngeni Water, considering that there are entire wards which fall under UMngeni Water that have been without water for weeks on end? Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
Let's thank uShenge and let's correct uShenge. They don't belong under uMngeni Water. The water services authority in these areas remain eThekwini, including Ugu District. Those
... two institutions as water services authorities. As a national department working with our own entities, we must accept that there were delays in terms of this bulk infrastructure but it does not have any impact on the question of water security or water availability. There are inefficiencies in the system. As you might be aware, the nonrevenue water in the two institutions is hovering above
52%. We must attend to the issue of nonrevenue water so that at least those who used to have water yesterday, even today they can have water, manage the issue of operational efficiency in terms of the standard operating procedures, ensure how to mitigate the issue of load shedding. Our reservoirs must be full. How do you manage your pressure reducing valves, manage your own issues of ... [Inaudible.]
... ensure that reservoirs are there, including the issues of communities around water use efficiency and how to be able to use the right technologies even in the built environment. At this stage, by the time the project comes on board in 2027, we will have improved the capacity of these institutions, supported by our own water boards or by their own capacity that they would have built as their own entities to ensure that issues of efficiency that are even linked to revenue enhancement, including the issues of customer satisfaction, are not the problems that must be experienced.
However, we are very happy that in the interim some measures are in place to provide water through water cutting that must be transparent and consistent, and issues of the use of ground water. Thank you.
Question 70:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
House Chairperson, we want to indicate that as the Ministry of Water and Sanitation, we’ve gone from one province to another province, we have a full understanding of all the challenges our municipalities are experiencing. Some of these municipality challenges are known, like poor governance and management of municipalities, inability to manage the issue of water services provider function, issues of lack of asset management, and inadequate budget for operation and management.
We have produced the report, called ‘The blue drop, the green drop or no drop’ of which the no drop report is about issues of non-revenue water that we’ve been able to indicate about asset management.
And then the blue drop around the issues of water whether is it of good quality to be used by various users. Then the issue around supply chain challenges and the issues of load shedding. We have then been in a position to ensure that we support these municipalities in the current budget more than
14 billion rands has been set aside around the grants that are
actually managed by our own department, so that we can be in a position to do that, but over a medium-term fiscal framework MTF period.
Forty-four billion Rand is budgeted to be able to support municipalities. Either to ensure that the current systems are refurbished, the existing infrastructure is functioning optimally, but you also build new infrastructure to ensure issues of water security that is being there.
We’re also building new dams, new canals, pump stations, including bringing water from other countries. So that we don’t run out of water in our country. We also have developed with all provinces, provincial bulk master plans so that we can be in a position that water resources are managed well.
We’ve made a decision to House Chairperson that the current challenge is municipalities are facing, we want them to impose section 78, appoint competent authorities to provide water while they build on their own capacity. The must also attend to the issues of financial provision where certain percentage is set aside. Money from water sales is being ringfenced, but in addition, we have the water partnership office working with
the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA infrastructure fund in the National Treasury, private sector is on board to support municipality.
Lastly, on issues of capacity, we have said to municipalities, let’s train everybody who works in the water sector within a particular period. They must have the necessary skills within three years and certificated by all our qualification
authorities, including working with State Information Technology Agencies, SITAS.
The issues of vandalism and the destruction of infrastructure, I’ve spoken to the earlier question, working with law enforcement agencies, our communities, so that we can be able to reverse the trend of destruction of the main infrastructure that is critical to bring services to our citizens.
Rev K R J MESHOE: House Chairperson, when the ACDP addressed this issue about 15 years ago, there was a critical shortage of water experts in South Africa. In fact, there were just three such experts then. The shortage of water experts presents a critical challenge to the management and conservation of ecosystems. With a limited number of experts
specializing in this field, there is a significant gap in understanding and monitoring freshwater environment.
These experts play a crucial role in assessing water quality, biodiversity, and ecological health, vital for sustaining ecosystems and supporting communities reliant on freshwater resources.
What I want to ask the Deputy Minister is what is government doing to incentivize careers in this critical field to ensure that more students take an interest in the study of water management to mitigate the serious threat of shortage of clean water to clean drinking water we are facing in our country?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
House Chairperson, over the last thirty years, the ANC-led government has invested a lot around the question of skills revolution. There are many water scientists and engineers that have been produced by the ANC-led government and some of us we are part of that product of the ANC as professional, water specialist.
It is no longer the truth that we don’t have expert. If you remember, the Department of ... [Inaudible.] ... for at a particular point in time, all the guys who were running the sector were white. They were actually males, but you can go today and can check how have we changed. Our director generals and chief executive officers, CEOs, in our own water boards are highly qualified and they are doing the best of their abilities.
One of our major challenges that we must also know House Chairperson, is that we have our own institution and the water research commission, we work with universities, there’s a lot of scientists and engineers produced by the system of Dr Nzimande and others.
Our difficulty is mainly in municipalities. In municipalities where there is a tendency of appointing people that are not suitably qualified, hence our decision that there are minimum requirements for you to work in the water and in the infrastructure environment.
But there are those process control officers very, very capable. They might not be certificated as a caring ANC
led-government, we recognize a recognition of prior learning. Hence our decision that over the next three years, all those working in our water system at a local level, must be trained. We work with SITAS, we work with universities, and we are very, assured, we are in the right direction. But we insist, decision makers, please appoint the right people. There are many professionals who are idling there that can be used by us.
Mr M R MASHEGO: Minister, how far is the departmental process in developing legislation or regulations that will enable the department to timeously intervene in struggling water service authorities to avoid long distances of water outages in the country? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
House Chairperson, we fully agree with the hon Mashego to say that our intervention in terms of section 63 of the Water Services Act has always been dependent on the invoking of section 139 of the Constitution. And the number of municipalities in the main, they sometimes refuse to be supported or when you intervene. The is an example of Tshwane where they took the provincial government to court, when they
tried to intervene. But currently we’re working well with all these institutions, and some are actually in a position ... like Emfuleni, eThekwini and others that have agreed that we must support them.
We have tabled a legislation that has to be considered by the House, so that we can be in a position to ensure that, one, there is the strengthening of the ability of the department to intervene, the issues of water service providers to be dealing from the issue of the water service authority, where you can appoint competent water service providers with the issue of the department giving the operating licenses. But at very same time, we are using other mechanism like, how do we ensure that the grant system instead of giving direct grants, we give indirect grants so that we can be able to deal with the issues of lack of implementation and the projects that have been delayed and including the support that we gave around the question of using the district development model. I thank you.
Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Hon Minister, most municipalities are facing a serious backlog in the infrastructure, maintenance, and rehabilitation necessary for providing potable water and sanitation services, as a result of severe financial and
capacity constraints. I would like to know how your department capacitates these municipalities to address these challenges beyond merely making funds available? Thank you, House Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
House Chairperson, we have taken decision as government to ensure that our asset management doctrine, and philosophy has an appreciation that when you ... [Inaudible.] ... an infrastructure or an asset, you must invest back in the asset so that you can be able to earn certain returns. One of the decisions was to say, it is mandatory that 10% of the municipal infrastructure grant must be used for issues of repairs and renewal, and we’re monitoring that that municipalities, they do.
That 50% must be set aside for water and sanitation, including in our own grants that we are giving. We are also saying that municipalities, is mandatory now that the issues of the money that come from water saves, must be ringfenced. A certain quantum must be invested back into water, so that we don’t have other problems that are them.
But it’s not only the issues of investment, but there are also issues of attending to issues of non-revenue water, attending to the issues of the billing system. Also attending the issue that people must pay for services. Those who can’t afford to pay the ANC led-government has provided the social security net to ensure that it is a free basic water, free basic electricity.
But you must meter it so you can change the behaviour because the consumption of South Africans, per person, per litre per day, it can’t be hovering around 278 when the world average is around 178 litres per person, per day. That’s how we want to introduce the reforms into the sector. Then there will be incentives, but also disincentives. If there is
non-performance around these issues of the management of the system. Thank you.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, we have the expertise of the deputy minister’s black female water scientists and engineers that I met. Water provisions are getting better, and I like to congratulate the ministry. In Matubatuba the main shortage of water supply to villages is the uMfolozi River.
Villagers are exposed to life threatening challenges when they
access the river to get water, one villager drowns every month when they chase ... [Inaudible.] ... from the river. What plans has the department have in place to build dams in municipalities, where villages are still forced to fetch water from rivers? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION (Mr M D Mahlobo):
We want to thank hon Hendricks also to acknowledges the advances we’ve made without hiding the challenges that we still face, and we are addressing. The people of uMtubatuba are part of the system that we actually have intervened around the question of uMkhanyakude District, Zululand District and we have met with all these municipalities, including the communities and traditional leaders around UMtubatuba where we have looked at the possibility of ensuring water security.
They put they throw there, that we must be able to complete, we have the Lower UMfolozi where we need to be able to do an off-channel dam within that particular system. While at the very same time we’re also reliant on the other systems, including the groundwater for those particular communities.
And we are working very well with the district there in ensuring that all those neighbouring local municipalities are being supported. We can assure the people of UMtubatuba and surroundings that no one will be left behind. We will do whatever it takes that their rights under the sun of having access to water and decent sanitation is protected. Thank you.
Question 76:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the question relates to youth programmes and how they have contributed to a better life for young people. I just want to indicate that we have quite a number of adolescent and youth-friendly services, especially in primary health areas. These are called youth zones, which make it possible for young people to come and seek help without fear of being, sort of, spied upon by older people, neighbours and so on. So, young people can even access family planning services and can get advice, HIV testing and so on ... sexual and reproductive health, contraception and also comprehensive services on HIV and AIDS where they can be counselled and tested, including being tested for tuberculosis and ... prevention for HIV, which is very important for young people. They can be taught about pre-exposure prophylaxis and also post-exposure prophylaxis against HIV and Aids.
So, we have a number of programmes in that regard — school health programmes, immunisation programmes against cervical cancer through the administration of the human papilloma virus vaccine. Mental health services are also key in our primary health services. I just want to indicate that we face major problems in the area of mental health in terms of the outbreak of substance abuse. There's now hardly any province or any district which is immune to this. Our outpatient departments are flooded with young people who get hooked on drugs. So these issues of counselling and advice on how to avoid getting hooked on drugs is very important.
In terms of its benefits, of course the prevention of early teenage pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies ... in terms of their sexual and reproductive rights is very important ... skills transfer and making sure that young people are confident. Programmes such as groundBREAKERs are very key in terms of mobilising young people in working amongst their peers and being able to be strengthened in their confidence. We also have programmes such as Women RISE, which also gives empowerment ... to be conscious of gender-based violence and
... be able to report that and strengthen their confidence in that regard. Lastly, there is also a programme called Soul
Buddyz Clubs which mobilises young people to ensure that they can be empowered, but in the form of games and fun, because you're not going to get through to young people with only a very serious approach but it must also be in the form of fun and games. So, these are some of the programmes which we have within our services, in order to empower and strengthen young people. Thank you.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon Minister. Before I go to hon Jacobs ...
Afrikaans:
... kan ek asseblief vra ... die kant om op te hou gesels? Hello? Hou op om te gesels asseblief.
English:
You are in the House. You are busy talking there and drowning out the speakers. Hon Jacobs?
Dr K L JACOBS: Thank you, Minister, for your reply and thank you, Chair, for silencing those talkers on the other side.
This is such an important topic. Minister, thank you for those programmes. I tried to count them. I think there are about
11 programmes which your department is running. I think we should really be able to show more of the positive impact of what you talked about through communication and questions such as these.
However, as much as older people, young people of course are also at risk of developing illnesses and diseases, especially infectious diseases. The health risks of acquiring these diseases and the sequelae are just as well known. Of course, the outcome for young people can be improved through education and prevention strategies. My question is, which diseases are the youth mostly to be at risk of developing and how is this risk being addressed?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Amongst others of course, in terms of youth services, generally speaking there is no dispute about the fact that young people have a strong immunity. You know, they're still very strong in terms of various diseases but the fact of the matter is that they are also vulnerable, especially in terms of behaviour-related exposure.
However, of course we also do ... For instance, in terms of your school health programmes, amongst other things there are
things which get missed even in families as children grow up. Some of those may even be congenital malformations. We know very well, for instance with school health programmes that there are young people who are assumed to have a low intelligence quotient, IQ, only to find that their sight ... they can't see whatever is written very well. Some can’t hear very well and it is not detected. So it's through school health programmes that problems like these are picked up and many young people get helped with hearing aids and spectacles, where those can make a difference.
However, beyond that it's largely behaviour-related exposure. Generally, young people are subject to peer pressure. So, if they don't have enough information ... I've already mentioned about the issue of substance abuse, which is a major problem. So, exposure ... starting even in terms of smoking. For instance, how many young people end up smoking simply because of peer pressure? So, those are the ... In terms of these programmes ... which give them confidence to even withstand things like exposure to substances, starting with alcohol and then graduating to drugs. Those are some of the risks which
... with these strengthening programmes. Of course, sexual activity ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.].
Mrs M B HICKLIN: Minister, the ANC's Tintswalo is a very troubled person and so are her children who are facing health care uncertainty because of a lack of co-ordinated skills development programmes.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Just pause, hon member. Hon members, Tintswalo is in the Sona. Please, when somebody says Tintswalo, don't drown out that person because Tintswalo is here. Please go ahead.
Mrs M B HICKLIN: As I said, Tintswalo is a very troubled person. Tintswalo is a very troubled person and so are her children, as they are facing health care uncertainty because of a lack of co-ordinated skills development programmes to ensure that their post-basic health degree qualifications can lead to specialisation in a whole host of disciplines, like anaesthesia, internal medicine, and ear, nose and throat medicine.
Over the past months, the DA has been inundated with complaints about a lack of cohesion with the Walter Sisulu University, the Department of Health ... the Council on Higher Education, CHE, relating to the Master of Medicine programme,
where students are entered into a programme, waste two years of their time and hard-earned money and neither you nor Minister Nzimande nor the CHE's Dr Green can agree on what are the qualifying criteria. [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, it was quite a long question. I tried to pick up the gist ...
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Radebe, you probably want to leave the House earlier than others. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, I was saying that because the hon member was quite long, I tried to pick up the gist of the issues. At the end it does sound as if it has more to do with the issues of programmes and career certainty. It seems to be more ... It's something which specifically ... on that master’s programme. We can also follow up with Minister Nzimande, but as I mentioned earlier on, we always try to make sure that our training institutions train in areas which are relevant in terms of the services. So here and there we picked up ... This is not the first allegation that there's something wrong, where Technical and Vocational Education and Training,
TVET, colleges would sometimes have a particular programme where they have not done research in terms of whether it's related to the actual practical needs in the health services. So, that's a matter which we can follow up on in detail because it's not necessarily the first time where such a matter has been picked up. We will have to verify whether indeed that training is there ... not a particular area of health services where those people who are qualified can be utilised. However, I'm not very certain about that particular course. We will be able to follow up. Thank you.
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Minister, considering the state of public health care in the country at the moment, what do you think is the experience of your Tintswalo when she visits clinics and public hospitals in South Africa today? It's your Tintswalo
... [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, let me thank the hon member because it’s as a result of her earlier question that I actually visited Heideveld, one of the areas here in Cape Town, this morning. They have actually demarcated a section for young people, you know, adolescents and youth services. There were young people there, so if you go tomorrow to
Heideveld they will show you. They are there, they are receiving services and they appreciate it. Those are your Tintswalos.
So, I'm not talking theory of some Tintswalo somewhere. I spoke to Tintswalos this morning who were there to receive services ... properly organised and demarcated in terms of where they can come and get counselled, receive family planning, HIV testing and all that. So, it's happening in real life, not just in theory. I can assure you that it is happening.
Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Minister ...
IsiZulu:
... siyabezwa oTintswalo kulungile. Mina angikhulumi ngalokho, ngikhuluma ngochwepeshe[professionals.] laba esingenabo ezindaweni ezisemakhaya njengale koCeza kodwa okunye engikhuluma ngakho sebekhona oDokotela kodwa abakwazi ukufika koGogo emakhaya. Sithini ngoNompilo abangasanakiwe, Ngqongqoshe?
English:
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Hon Minister, oonompilo! Hon Minister, are you consulting?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Cha, ngimzwile ubengilahlile nje kancane kodwa sengimzwile. Ngizwile lungu elihloniphekile.
English:
No, in terms of community health and caregivers, we are aware that we have not taken up as many and retained as many as we wish, and that's really a matter of financial capacity.
However, we are making sure that there's a process which is going on to ensure that there is certainty in terms of the dispensation because we took it from the point where some of them were under nongovernmental organisations, NGO's. We have dealt with that and we are now at the level where all community health workers and caregivers are under ... of a minimum wage. So, at least at that level they are all benefitting. However, we are looking at much more certainty in terms of ... I know that, especially from the labour side, they are aspiring to be on the Public Service dispensation.
However, that's more complicated in terms of, firstly, depriving you from making sure that the people come from the
community, because currently the advantage of caregivers and community health ... is that they are identified by communities and then they are engaged, whereas once you go into the Public Service Act you must advertise, then interview and have all those problematic requirements. However, this time we are working on a dispensation which also accommodates the fact that they must be in touch with the communities and be selected at the local level.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. Hon member, what point is that now? I'm in the middle of concluding the session.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it's because I raised my hand before you ended the session.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Please go ahead. Let me hear you.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, I want to couple privilege together with Rule 138 — Questions to
Ministers. I’m not sure with what we can read it with but I looked at ... seven. I think you can forward it to whoever is responsible but I want to plead that, you know ...
IsiZulu:
... siyawenza sonke umsebenzi wethu ...
English:
... but the House, when it comes to questions it disadvantages some of us because you come to the House first and there are members who have asked questions, yet you are not able to answer those questions. It’s like, you know ...
IsiZulu:
... asinamsebenzi. Siyasebenza futhi siyawazi umsebenzi wethu.
English:
So, it’s a plea from me because it’s the second time that I have come to the House and sat with my colleagues while they have three, four, five, six questions. I am sitting here for the second time, having worked hard to ensure that I respond
adequately to the members who have asked the questions. Thank you.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Mr Q R Dyantyi): Thank you, hon member. Before you clap hands ...
IsiXhosa:
... niyazithanda izandla nina apho.
English:
Before you clap hands ... Thank you, hon Minister. You are raising a fair point and it is sustained. I can just indicate that, that point will have to go to our Rules Committee and the Speaker’s Office. We have already attended to this, so it means we must improve and basically mix it because you would have started with one Minister having four questions in a row. So, it’s a question of how we arrange that. However, that will have to be discussed in the Rules Committee. Having said that, before you stand ... I have not even asked you to stand.
Afrikaans:
Julle is baie haastig om daardie skinderstories te begin.
English:
You can now stand and allow the Chairperson and the mace to leave the House. With that, the House is adjourned. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Nou kan julle maar skinder.
The House adjourned at 18:14.
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