A delegation of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development under the leadership of Ms N Tsheole (ANC) visited the provinces of Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal.

The main objects of the tour were to:

• Follow-up on the 2003 May visit to
• The Eastern Cape as well as do oversight in the province of KwaZulu-Natal; and
• Forge a partnership between the Portfolio Committee and provincial standing committees on Social Development in monitoring effective delivery of social security.

The delegation comprised of:

• Opening and welcome.
• Objectives of the visit/meeting.
• Briefing by the Standing Committee on Social Development.
• Briefing by the provincial Department of Social Development.
• Response from Cash Paymasters (CPS).
• Response from AllPay.
• Input by the EC MEC for Social Development.
• Way Forward.

Ms N Tsheole

Prof M Mbadi

Ms K Rwexana

Ms M Ramotsamai

Ms N Nkabinde

Mr W Van der Burgh

Mr M Yako

Mr Billy Craven

Mr M Mbanga

Mrs C Webb

1. OPENING AND WELCOME – Ms Dekeda

Mrs Dekeda opened the meeting and welcomed everybody present with particular reference to the visiting delegation.

2. OBJECTIVES OF THE VISIT BY THE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT – Ms Tsheole

Speaking on behalf of the visiting delegation, she stressed the essentiality of a constant interaction between the committee and all provinces not only for mere sake of gathering information but also to enable the committee to respond appropriately when called to. She also added that if there were problems in the Eastern Cape the committee needed to be part and involved and not look from a distance. She pointed the officials to the gravity of big challenges ahead and challenged the provincial office of Social Development to be at the forefront of means to address them. Not least because social development was at the centre of government’s delivery machinery.

3. BRIEFING BY THE PROVINCIAL STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT – Mr Basopu

Speaking as the head of the standing committee in the Eastern Cape, he, referring to the visiting delegation said the Chief Whip in the provincial legislature had refused granting his committee permission arguing that the latter had been continuously briefing the Portfolio Committee on Social Development without any feedback from it. Apart from that, Mr Basopu said that his committee had nothing new to present to the delegation. He, however, hastened to point out that in the joint briefing made by the standing committee, MEC’s office and CPS to the Portfolio Committee on Social Development dated 18 June 2003, CPS had made certain undertakings that, he claimed, the latter had not honoured. Among those undertakings, Mr Basopu said, were the following:

• No additional new machines were provided to offset the backlog in grant payments.
• CPS was still paying grant beneficiaries incorrect amounts.
• CPS was still experiencing problems with enrolment of grant beneficiaries.
• CPS was still refusing to pay out unclaimed benefits arguing that that was not part of the contract between it and the provincial department of Social Development.
• There were still problems of lax security at CPS-administered pay points, with the security personnel alleging that CPS was forcing it to work overtime for which, it claims, it was not being paid.
• The problem of migration of grant beneficiaries still remained unresolved.
• Grant beneficiaries still continued to appoint procurators if when they were not sick.

4. BRIEFING BY THE EASTERN CAPE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT - Mr Maqethuka

The problems experienced with the level of services provided by CPS during the roll out of their implementation plan during the period November 2002 to March 2003 were so severe that the Department suspended the final transfer of beneficiaries due to take place in March 2003 in order to enable CPS to resolve these problems and put in place adequate resources to ensure that these problems are not repeated once they are servicing the entire area under their jurisdiction.

After consultation between the Department and CPS, wherein CPS assured the department of their readiness it was decided to transfer the remaining area in two phases over the months of June and July 2003. The rationale for this was to enable CPS to adequately prepare themselves but more importantly to ensure that our beneficiaries are not in any way inconvenienced. On transfer of the June 2003 sites to CPS the old problems manifested themselves once again. These problems included:

• Late or non-arrival of pay teams at pay-points.
• Poor planning and insufficient capacity of branch managers.
• Insufficient vehicles, payment and enrolment equipment.
• Incomplete enrolments.
• Long queues and unspecified time of arrival.
• Lack of customer care.
• Non-payment of unclaimed benefits since November 2002.
• No contingency plan submitted to the Department.
• Statistical data not submitted timeously to the Department. Statistics provided by CPS on 17 June 2003 indicates a drop in beneficiaries paid before 4pm (cut-off in terms of the Service Level Agreement) from 78% (April 2003) to 69% (May 2003). There was also a significant increase in the number of beneficiaries paid after 5pm from 40.378 in April to 81.221 in May. The June pay cycle statistics had not been received, but the situation was expected to have worsened given the vast number of reports received from districts regarding poor service delivery levels.

While some of the problems of poor service delivery in respect of the payment of service benefits can be ascribed to CPS, the Department itself has problems and constraints in terms of providing a complete service to beneficiaries> These include:

• No formal staffing of the District Offices (payment and help desks provided by staff who should be performing other social services).
• Staff complement to provide help desks and an inspectorate function is estimated at approximately 150 staff.
• Welfare forums are volunteer structures comprising delegates from the communities who assume responsibility for communication at the pay points. While these forums have always existed they have had varying degrees of acceptance in their respective communities. These forums have now been placed under the guidance of ward of ward councillors and with this guidance, it is hoped that their contribution will be more effective.
• SOCPEN is not reflective of the situation on the ground. Data cleansing processes will include the transfer of beneficiaries based on payment history, however, the data needed to enable of beneficiaries to their pay point has not been submitted by CPS to date.

A number of the issues highlighted above can be resolved by both parties given the right resources. Such issues that can be resolved include:

• Mutual agreement of pay schedules (timetables) which is the cornerstone of performance and planning for a pay cycle.
• Fully functional Area committees as envisaged by the Service Level Agreement. These are fundamental to the success of the overall process of payments and allow for cross-pollination of ideas and solutions at central points.
• Lack of pay point infrastructure accentuates problems during adverse weather conditions. The only service provider obligation in terms of infrastructure is to identify current infrastructure that could be used as pay points. Construction or procurement of pay point facilities is a Department responsibility. The pay point development fund (30 cents contribution from the Service Provider per beneficiary per month) can be utilized to fund this construction, but additional funds will be required if the construction route is followed. Cheaper shelter options, such as community built bomas or similar, should be considered in the interim during the long process of upgrading to RDP norms and standards.
• The enrolment of bed-ridden beneficiaries at their homes is the most practical and humane basis of enrolment. However, This requires careful planning to match the visit of the service provider with the Department official, the beneficiary and the procurator. The procurator must also be loaded on SOCPEN.

Given the current state of service delivery the Department has initiated the following actions in recent weeks:

• The beneficiaries transferred to CPS for the June 2003 pay cycle has been reversed to the beneficiaries’ previous payment method, in Engcobo, Cofimvaba, Cal, Lady Frere and Sterkspruit. The number of beneficiaries affected is approximately 150 000.
• The beneficiaries due to be transferred for the July 2003 pay cycle to CPS has been suspended.
• Deployment of capacity where required to pay beneficiaries by provincial cheque has been done in those areas.
• Negotiations with IPSP to substantially fund a monitoring function and in addition, to support the capacity of help desks where required. The balance of the funding is to be provided by the Department.
• The Department has reached an understanding with two banks, namely Standard Bank and First National Bank open up accounts for beneficiaries who prefer to be paid through ACB. This understanding compels the Department to absorb bank charges in respect of beneficiaries who are paid through these banks at an average charge of R14,50 per beneficiary per month with effect from the 1^st of July 2003. This arrangement will, without doubt, reduce the number of beneficiaries queuing at the pay points.

• The basis for outright cancellation of the contract with CPS has not been set (for example, proper notice of breach).
• Re-negotiation and adjustments to the service Level Agreement, through an amicable process with CPS is more likely.
• Down scaling of CPS activities has not been contested at this stage.
• On-going payment by provincial cheque is not a sustainable option.

• Consideration for the transfer of the areas to another service provider must include:

1. CPS to be set criteria for transfer.
2. AllPay contract to be expanded to include additional areas.
3. New Service Provider to be awarded the areas under a new tender process.

• Centralised point for communication with CPS and vice versa to be established.
• The Department has been advised to approach a firm of auditors to audit CPS’s performance.
• Press statements should only be released after legal advice.

The new payment system is intended to improve the quality of service we render to our beneficiaries, to contribute to the upliftment of the communities in which they and to eliminate fraudulent practices which have cost the Department dearly in the past. We continue to believe and maintain that the new system will go a long way in adding value to both the Department and its clients.

We welcome constructive criticism from whatever quarter but would appeal to those who level criticism to do so in a balanced and informed way. My Departmental administrators and their support structures are under immense pressure and need the support of all in the province.

The Department must operate within the law and cannot simply cancel the contract. To cancel the contract without a suitable contingency plan is irresponsible.

Mr Yako speaking on behalf of Cash Paymasters, took an exception to the critical remarks made against his company. Responding with regard to the accusations about the shortage of vehicles used by CPS, Mr Yako referred to the briefing his company had made to the Portfolio Committee on Social Development on June 19, 2003 where, he said, undertakings were made to provide equipment machines within two weeks thereafter. He pointed out that, such an undertaking was, subsequently, honoured by CPS. He went further to indicate that there had experienced no rescheduelment of any payments in areas like as Buttterworth and Flagstaff. Speaking on the number of machines that CPS had deployed in the Eastern Cape, Mr Yako said when 6 districts were taken away from CPS by the Eastern Cape government, CPS diverted the machines from those six districts to other districts. In respect of finishing time, he said CPS had managed to finish payment at the acceptable level of between 14h30 – 15h30. He also admitted to an instance where CPS had payments made after 16h00 around Umtata, which affected about 150 beneficiaries. A similar situation, he said, was also recorded in Port St Johns where CPS paid beneficiaries until 18h00 affecting about 40 people.

With regard to the issue of security, Mr Yako said this was a very difficult issue and expressed his surprise at the comment that linked of the problem of heist to one particular company. He said that heist could not be planned for and needed to be a responsibility to all and not just a single company. He went on to say that CPS had contracted a company that was guarding all depots and had upgraded the security system to be monitored through a central point in Johannesburg. He added that Fidelity Guard was also providing more guards particularly in the Transkei area. He admitted that CPS still needed more guards accompanying cash vehicles.

Ms Dekeda pointed Mr Yako to a problem of security around pay points, which she said of utmost concern for it had immediate impact on the security of grant beneficiaries.

Mr Yako said the reason people committed cash robberies at pay points was because of the money being taken out of the cabins in security vehicles. He therefore indicated that CPS needed to increase the number of security personnel around pay points.

With regard to issue of lack of shelter for beneficiaries at pay points, Mr Yako said CPS and the Eastern Cape Department of Social Development were looking at improving conditions under which beneficiaries received their money.

In respect of vehicles with movable system that can be attached to the halls at pay points, Mr Yako said CPS did not have such vehicles in the Eastern Cape. He however indicated such a system was currently being used in vehicles servicing the provinces like KwaZulu-Natal and Northern Province. He also indicated that such systems were going to be used in the future with regard to vehicles operating in the Eastern Cape.

In respect of the issue of enrolment of grant beneficiaries, Mr Yako said that there were a number of incomplete enrolments simply because they did not have photographs. He said for the month of August 2003 CPS had put on about 5200 photographs as a way of addressing the problem of incomplete enrolments.

Regarding the accusation that CPS was arriving at pay points before 06h00, Mr Yako said he did not where that had taken place. As far as he was concerned, he said, CPS’s vehicles leave depots at 06h00 to be at pay points at 08h00. He also added that CPS and the provincial Department had joint area committees where they jointly planned payment patterns.

In respect of incorrect amounts being paid to beneficiaries, Mr Yako denied knowledge of where this had taken place and said he needed more clarity on this.

In the discussion that ensued after CPS’s input, Mr Basopu strongly argued that as far as he was concerned, since the time that his Committee had together with CPS jointly briefed the Portfolio Committee on Social Development, nothing had been done by CPS to improve things. He said as much as CPS had promised to buy machines, it had just redirected the ones already by the provincial department. He went further to argue that, in terms of the contract entered into by the provincial department of social development and CPS, in which the latter undertook to secure the money, the money was not secured. He also said that it was so unfortunate that the meeting took place before the visit to the pay points, which he said, might have given participants a different picture.

Mr Luyenge added his voice by expressly condemning the bad manner, he said, CPS was treating grant beneficiaries particularly in the Transkei area.

Prof Mbadi wanted to know about the fate of the beneficiaries affected by the money stolen by thieves at pay points and about whose responsibility it was to refund the stolen money. Referring to what, he said, was a problem of migration of beneficiaries. Prof Mbadi said CPS must take the blame for this. He said CPS must have told beneficiaries that they could access their monies anywhere.

Ms Ramotsamai that provincial government of the Eastern Cape like other segments of government had a constitutional obligation to fulfil and that people were entitled to grants. She went on to say that if there were problems the buck stopped with the Eastern Cape and not CPS. She asked for how long was the Eastern Cape government going to remain tithering about problems characterising grant payments. She urged that something be done arguing that it was now not time to ask what happened but what was going to be done. She commended the Eastern Cape for the deal it had struck with Standard Bank and First National Bank

Ms Dekeda said that, in respect of the issue of heist, her Department had met with CPS twice and agreed on the need for close interaction between CPS and South African police Services (SAPS) around planning so that the latter could assist in terms of safety and security. And that her Department had raised concerns about the security status of CPS staff and suggested that the latter underwent security clearance.

6. BRIEFING BY THE EC MEC FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT – Mrs Moerane-Mamase

She said her Department was not folding its arms with the service providers. It was creating an enabling environment. That it was providing what was due from it in terms of the contract it entered into with the service providers. That it was not buying anyone’s face. That it was negotiating with other service providers to reach out to people in deeper rural areas. That it was indeed going to act on the problems characterising CPS’s delivery either left or right and everybody would be informed of the outcomes in due course. And that it was trying to cover its back. That CPS had, at some stage, assured her Department that it had some tracking devices and asked why they were not using them appropriately.

She said she knew that her Department was accountable to those people in deep rural areas. And that her Department should thus not be projected as uncaring. And that its caring should therefore not be doubted. That her Department had not seen any improvements by CPS.

She said her Department was comfortable with the quality of service delivered by AllPay though there were still some minor issues of concern like facilities around pay points. She said her Department together with the national Department of Social Development were going to work on the problems around pay points. And that where municipalities could not provide halls, they would provide them. She stressed, however, the point that providing halls was not Department’s sole responsibility. And that her Department’s responsibility was to pay grants to beneficiaries under decent conditions.

In conclusion, shed said that she would appreciate a feedback from the visiting Committee.

Ms Tsheole expressed gratitude to MEC Moerane-Mamase for taking time to be present with them. She said she appreciated the MEC office for availing its staff. She apologised for her committee’s failure to give feedback for its May 2003’s visit to the Eastern Cape and promised to give her two feedbacks this time around.

She went on to say that her committee regarded the task of providing grants as a partnership. And that it would like to CPS to be sensitive with the plight of the vulnerable beneficiaries. And that it was not a case of criticising CPS. She said in respect of the issue of upgrading pay points – there was a need to look at different options and take the shortest and cheapest possible way of delivery. She expressed her appreciation of the movement towards grant payments by banks and indicated that a lot would be learnt by other provinces in that regard.

Speaking on the issue of help desks – Ms Tsheole asked if volunteers could not used to assist with help desks at every pay point and a mechanism be created reports from help desks could be forwarded to the Department.

Mr Yako speaking on behalf of CPS responded to the questions and allegations by saying that:

• In respect of the issue of migration of beneficiaries raised by Prof Mbadi – this had stabilised in the provinces CPS was operating.
• In respect to the question raised on stolen money around pay points – The money was insured and that efforts were made to replace it as quick as possible to continue with the daily schedule of grant payment.
• In respect of the issues raised by Mr Basopu – there was verification of the issues he was raising, claiming that Mr Basopu’s Committee visited areas alone and would only report to CPS a week later. If there were problems, they should be reported immediately for a prompt response or action.
• In respect of issues relating to robbery and security status of security personnel – CPS together with the Department would look into the all these aspects.

7. BRIEFING BY ALLPAY – Charmaine Webb

• AllPay was still doing bed-ridden beneficiaries. The concern was that not all bed-ridden beneficiaries had procurators.
• Migration of beneficiaries – still a concern and AllPay was discouraging it. A stabilising pattern in that regard was however emerging.
• 86% of registration cards had been issued – the target was 96%.
• 93% enrolment by the end of July 2003.
• AllPay had a risk management plan in place.
• Statistical data – AllPay had proposed a workshop with Department staff on how to manage data. AllPay was still awaiting a response from the Department in that regard.
• Upgrading of pay points – working with the Department on this.

1. Ms Ramotsamai wanted to know what happened if someone lost ID and Registration Card and how long it would take to reactivate his registration.

2. Ms Tsheole said she was under impression that the AllPay briefing would include background information on AllPay.

3. Mr Basopu asked AllPay to comment on the rumours making rounds that it was refusing to pay beneficiaries admitted at hospitals.

RESPONSE BY ALLPAY – Ms Webb

• With regard to lost ID and Registration Cards – she said it was difficult to deal with this issue. AllPay asked beneficiaries to bring a copy of their IDs from the start and this was used to verify claims. In the event of the money not claimed after two months the payment was backdated. However, claims exceeding three months were not paid.
• Regarding the issue of admitted beneficiaries – Ms Webb said that it was a risk to take money to hospital. And that AllPay normally asked such beneficiaries to appoint procurators.
• On the AllPay background issue – Ms Webb explained that AllPay covered the areas west of the Kei River and administered about 50 pay points per day.

1. Prof Mbadi wanted to know if AllPay accepted documents signed by MPs and MPLs as commissioners of oath.
2. Ms Nkabinde asked what happened when a beneficiary was jailed.

In reply to Prof Mbadi’s question – Ms Webb’s answer was no.

Maqethuka answered Ms Nkabinde’s question by explaining that when a beneficiary was jailed he or she stopped being a beneficiary.

WAY FORWARD

As a way of wrapping up proceedings Ms Tsheole remarked that the meeting was a very honest and fruitful engagement. She said the aim was to urge the service providers to provide an excellent service. She urged the Eastern Cape government to take a leading role in addressing the problems for the good of the country.

Mr Basopu thanked the Portfolio Committee on Social Development for the visit as well as the Eastern Cape Department of Social Development.

• The delegation arrived at the pay point around 14h15 and found AllPay to have already wrapped up its grant payment work for the day.
• Nothing of substance to observe really.

• The delegation arrived at the pay around 14h30 and found AllPay to have already wrapped up its grant payment work for the day.
• Nothing of substance to observe really.

• The pay point was a hired Community Hall
• There was visible security personnel about 5 people armed with heavy rifles.
• The main gate was locked and access was supervised by a security guard.

• The delegation arrived at the pay point at 14h45 and found beneficiaries still waiting to receive grants – the reason given for this was that the pay point was experiencing the shortage of money due to migration of beneficiaries.
• When the money finally arrived the payment proceeded smoothly without any glitches.
• The beneficiaries were seated on chairs inside the hall.
• The beneficiaries did not appear agitated by the delay triggered by the shortage of money.

• Opening and welcome.
• Introduction.
• Outline purpose of the visit.
• Provincial input on pay point development program.
• Questions for clarities and discussion.
• Summary and way forward

Mr M Basopu

Mr Z Luyenge

Ms D Komose

Visiting delegation from the Portfolio Committee on Social Development:

Ms N Tsheole – leader of the delegation.

Prof LM Mbadi

Ms M Ramotsamai

Ms K Rwexana

Ms N Nkabinde

Ms Z Capha – District Mayor: OR Tambo District Municipality

Ms P Nazo – Staff member: Department of Social Development.

Mr N Duntsula – Staff member: Department of Social Development.

Ms Z Tshiki – Manager: Social Development – OR Tambo District Municipality.

Ms T Sokhanyile – Social Development – OR Tambo District Municipality.

Mr M Qoyo – Social Development – OR Tambo District Municipality.

Mr T Tywabi – Social Development – KSD.

Mr L Mgwebi – Social Development – KSD.

Ms N Titus – Social Development – OR Tambo District Municipality

Ms NM Dweba – OR Tambo District Municipality.

Mr P Mgoduka – Qawukeni Local municipality.

Mr F Mbane – Qawukeni Local municipality.

Mr K Gashi – OR Tambo District Municipality.

Mr Ngoma – OR Tambo District Municipality.

Mr B Jokazi – Ntabankulu Local Municipality.

Mr L Luvela – Ntabankulu Local Municipality.

Ms E Noconjo – Mbizana Municipality.

Mr M Mfolozi – Qawukeni Municipality.

Soon after Mr Basopu, in his capacity as the presiding officer over the meeting, had opened the meeting Mrs Dweba welcomed the visiting delegation and the opportunity to ask questions. She said they had long been waiting for the kind of opportunity to interact with the parliamentary delegation.

Following the introduction of her delegation, Ms Tsheole outlined the purpose behind her committee’s visit saying that it was to follow up to the committee’s visit undertaken in May 2003. She emphasized the need for partnership among all stakeholders. She explained that grant was a major programme on poverty alleviation, hence the need to run it well. She said it was only immediate programme available to deal with issues of poverty. She contended that for the programme to survive, it was important that it was run very well and efficiently. She further explained that her committee had prioritised the visit to the Eastern Cape so that it could see what the latter had put in place in respect to efficient and effective delivery of social security. And not only that but also to identify challenges that faced the province so as to assist government to ensure efficient delivery. She denied that it was a big brother approach.

Ms Tsheole went further to say that issues that affected people on the ground were her committee’s concern whether they emanated from national parliament, council and province. She stressed the significance of the councillors’ role in social security delivery because the council level was where delivery was targeted to take place.

She welcomed the visiting delegation and expressed delight at the fact that the delegation had decided to hold such a meeting at Umtata. She raised a concern regarding the way the inter-government relations were pursued in the province. She accused the provincial department of Social Development for looking down upon her district officials and treating them as mere subordinates. Referring to the issue of service providers for social grant payments, Ms Capha alleged that her district like other stakeholders had not been informed when the service providers were appointed but was now acting as a shock absorber to the problems relating to grant payments. She said her district officials had worked tirelessly helping grant beneficiaries. When they tried to link with the provincial department of Social Development, she said the latter seemed to be on the dark about the problems.

She further alluded to the problem of people without valid ID documents. As a way of addressing the problem, she said her district had put aside about R1, million for ID campaign for the KSD. She said there were separate amounts for all 7 local municipality localities. She said they had identified an office at Umkhambathi Game Reserve for the ID campaign. She said the main problem was that district did not have intentions to have authority over the department of Social Development but had sympathy and burden for the people who voted the current government into power.

Speaking on the her district’s programme for pushing back the frontiers of poverty, Ms Capha said that, as part of her district’s volunteer programme, they had been training a lot volunteers to assist expedite the process of ID registration. She said that the volunteer programme targeted the unemployed and less educated to do the blitz and the Grade 12s to fill the forms. She said all this was done in the interest of giving something to both the educated and unemployed. She said the programme had employed more than 700 people and the demand to have the programme reinstated was increasing. She said nobody had levelled a criticism against the programme accusing of being discriminatory.

She said the good example set by the volunteer programme should extend to the area of distribution of food parcels, which she said was dogged by allegations of corruption. She said there was an influx of complaints regarding the food parcels and people wanted to know the criteria used for the handing out of the parcels. She said people were alleging that the food parcels programme was discriminatory and that destitute people were being overlooked for people who were financially capable. She said that people were also alleging that certain officials were benefiting people who were supporting their political parties. She urged the councillors present in the meeting to work hard towards addressing the problem, as it was not desirable to have such an important project being accompanied by suspicions and tensions.

She alluded to another complaint that she said was being raised by people in her district, that is – who to choose between a councillor and a chief. She said the gap between chiefs and councillors no longer should exist as the two were needed to work together.

In her conclusion, she asked the visiting delegation to help foster good and strong inter-government relations in the province and thanked it for visiting the OR Tambo District Municipality.

Prof Mbadi said the tension between ward councillors and chiefs needed to be addressed urgently. He accused councillors of choosing to meet at schools than where chiefs really are. He said the chiefs were also government employees paid for by government.

Mr Basopu asked the officials from the provincial department of Social Development to tell where the process of distribution of food parcels was at that moment. He said the tension between councillors and chiefs resolved and followed up. He said the national government’s position on traditional leadership was clear. He also wanted to know about where the integrated community registration campaign programme at that stage.

Ms Titus’ reply on the question on food parcels was that the current target for distribution of food parcels was Bityi in the KSD. She said there was a forum there made up of different stakeholders who had been asked to help with the identification of needy families in the area. She basis for consideration for food parcels was poverty; child-headed family and family with HIV/AIDS affected people. Affected families, she said, were asked to fill form and their plight was verified by stakeholders in the forum. She said that was not an easy process and that following a random sample the forum had taken, they discovered that there were families that were getting double parcels, which were disqualified upon realisation.

Ms Titus also told the meeting the KSD area had received R3, million for the current year.

Mr Duntsula’s reply to the question on the integrated community registration campaign was that the latter was a provincial government-driven campaign aimed at integrating related campaigns in the province. He said the provincial department of Social Development was appointed to lead the campaign. This, he said, came after reported problems relating to Home Affairs. He said the provincial government had pledged R20 million for the campaign.

Mr Duntsula further explained that 4 district managers were driving the campaign. That it started in June 2002. He said that the committee driving the campaign at provincial was made up of police, political parties, Social Development, Home Affairs and Health. He appealed to local authorities to also contribute with resources to make the campaign a success.

Ms Ramotsamai asked about the problems the officials were experiencing with service provided by CPS in the area. She said she wanted to check against what the CPS officials had told them in the Bisho meeting of the 11 August 2003.

Ms Sokhanyile said that when CPS started its operations with grant payments a problem of people who could not get their grants with their slips showing nothing. She said she still had those beneficiaries’ data and statistics. She also referred to a robbery that she said took place at one of the pay points where beneficiaries’ monies were stolen and claimed that CPS was refusing to reimburse them. She also raised a problem of borders where, she said, there were two pay points in one area catering for different areas.

Mr Luvela from Ntabankulu raised problems, which he said, they were experiencing with Home Affairs like shortage of stationery, poor communication and poor budgeting. He also claimed that Home Affairs had refused finger printing done by police claiming that the latter’s was different from Home Affairs’.

Mr Mbane from Qawukeni local authority raised a problem of people whom, he said, had long applied for grants but had received them. He also appealed that problem of overpopulated pay points needed to be addressed. He further claimed that it was difficult to refer who were HIV/AIDS to doctors because of shortage of doctors in the area and appealed for more doctors to be deployed to the deep rural areas.

Ms Sokhanyile raised a problem of beneficiaries receiving disability grants who were being forced to forfeit the grant when receiving child support grant. She asked that something be done to address the problem.

RESPONSE BY – Ms P Nazo

Regarding the issue of robbery of beneficiary at pay point, she said that would be raised with CPS and a feedback would be given.

Regarding the issue of grant beneficiaries’ slips showing nothing, she said a follow-up on that was needed as it was possible for CPS to have a beneficiary’s name and not the money.

Regarding the issue of two pay points in one area, she said that there were pay point that the provincial department of Social Development was contemplating closing because they were too close to each other and creating new ones where they were most needed.

Regarding the issue of grant applications taking too long, she said, as a matter of procedure, a grant application should take the most three months.

Regarding the issue of doctors for deep rural areas, she said that her department used to rely on doctors from the department of Health but after talks the provincial Treasury a money had been released for employment of district doctors. She said, theses district doctors went and looked for private doctors and persuaded them to be used by department of Social Development for certain times and would be paid about R90 per consultation. She said these sessional doctors were employed to work along lines of the department of Social Development and replace unscrupulous ones.

Regarding the issue of disability grant beneficiaries losing their grant when receiving Child Support grant, she said that should be reported, as it should not, of necessity, be the case.

Ms Nkabinde rounded up the discussion by appealing for partnership among stakeholders and proper and constructive way of addressing issues.

Ms Capha pleaded with the visiting delegation to urge the Portfolio Committees on Health and Education to also visit the area as there were many problems relating to the education and health in the district.

Ms Tsheole, in her last words, told the meeting a feedback from her committee on policy related issues. She, however, told the meting that administrative issues were responsibility of department officials.

Mr Basopu, in ending the meeting, urged all participants in the meeting to report to their respective constituencies on all issues raised.

Ms N Tsheole

Prof M Mbadi

Ms K Rwexana

Ms M Ramotsamai

Ms N Nkabinde

Ms R Borman

Ms I Mars

• 4 Security personnel patrolling the pay point.
• 2 vehicles with payment machines were used for grant payments.
• 2 Big tents provided for pensioners.
• 10 Mobile toilets provided.
• Help desk.
• Things looked organised with beneficiaries seated orderly under the provided tents.
• No complaints were raised by the beneficiaries.
• The whole set-up there smacked of stage-management.

Taylor’s Halt pay point is a small community hall, fenced with a single entry/exit point. The pay point processes about 196 payments per day

• 2 pay vehicles with detachable grant pay machines.
• 4 security personnel manning the entry point to the hall.

• Things looked organised with beneficiaries seated orderly inside the hall.
• No complaints were raised by the beneficiaries.

Venue: 390 Street, Pietermaritzburg Welfare Office

Date: 13 August 2003

Chaired by: Mr Mhlongo

• Welcome
• Purpose of the visit by the parliamentary delegation
• Input by MEC Prince Zulu
• Discussion on observations made during the day’s visit

Prince GL Zulu – MEC for Population Development and Welfare Services, KwaZulu-Natal

Mr ES Mhlongo – Head of Department: Population Development and Welfare Services

Ms JT Xaba

Ms/Mr TA Mdadane

Ms/Mr NC Mngadi

Mr R Ramsundar

Mr M Edwards

Mr TD Ntombela

Ms GM Borman

Ms/Mr SW Mcoyi

Ms I Mars

FB Madlopha

Ms N Tsheole

Mr M Fukula

Ms S Rajbally

Ms K Rwexana

Ms M Ramotsamai

Ms N Nkabinde

Prof LM Mbadi

Mr M Memela

Ms M Zondi

Mr S Maphumulo

Ms P Ncwane

(a) Purpose of the visit by the parliamentary delegation – Ms N Tsheole

She started off by thanking the MEC, Prince Zulu for honouring the visiting parliamentary delegation by availing himself despite a tight work schedule. She went on to explain the rationale for the visit to the province was basically for the delegation to share and see for itself the challenges experienced in the province. She clarified that that was motivated by their legislative role of oversight and not necessarily policing. She acknowledged that the committee was visiting KwaZulu-Natal province for the first time. She said that the election was fast approaching and that the committee needed a report for those who might come after elections to see and know the challenges by each province. She further said that the committee also wanted to know what KwaZulu-Natal was doing right, particularly around service providers like Cash Paymasters (CPS) so that that could be shared with other provinces. She stressed the point that they were not there to police the province.

He extended a warm welcome to the visiting parliamentary delegation. He went on to explain that the province of KwaZulu-Natal was divided into 4 regions that were headed by two female and male officials. He said that the Department of Population Development and Welfare Services used to be part of Justice and was subsequently detached from it and forced to operate for a while sufficient resources (offices). He said that from the time of detachment his department had built a lot of offices to effect efficient service delivery. Speaking on the payments of social grants, Prince Zulu explained that his department had outsourced such a responsibility to Cash Paymasters Services (CPS). The move, he said, was prompted by the chronic theft of social grants money without breakage of offices. He also alluded to some problems with CPS some of whose officials, he said, were corrupt. He however mentioned too that his department and CPS had fought hard to make things right.

He also pointed out that his department had experienced a number of setbacks like robbery at pay points. He said that recently a beneficiary and a CPS had been killed following a robbery at a pay point. Speaking on what he said were "a lot of reported cases of robbery", he indicated that for any money lost at pay points be it through robbery or not, CPS was held accountable and responsible. He also alluded to a lot of successes in curtailing the number of robberies. He promised that soon his department was going to arrest about 18 Social Development Department officials.

He explained that his department had set up pension committees in most pay points comprising beneficiaries themselves. The logic for the committees, he said, was trouble-shooting at pay points. He also alluded to a group of organised lawyers that, he said, were purporting to be assisting pensioners whose services were not free at all. He said, one day one of the lawyers came before Appeals Board accompanying a so-called dumb person that he could not talk and therefore qualified for a social grant. Cornered by the department officials, he said the so-called dumb person, started talking explaining that she was a victim of a scam involving doctors, lawyers and some Social Development Department staff members. He said that his department had extracted all the essential information from her and was planning the arrest of the perpetrators.

He also informed the meeting that his department had in 1995 introduced a fraud squad, which, he said, was already yielding good results. Speaking about SOCPEN system, he said the latter was unhelpful in cases when beneficiaries had died, as it did not take them out.

In his concluding remarks, he thanked the visiting parliamentary delegation for coming to the province and emphasized the point that his department had nothing to hide and could thus take the delegation wherever it wanted to go.

Ms Rajbally thanked the MEC Prince Zulu for being open and informative and expressed her appreciation towards him for the time spent with the visiting delegation. She went on to say that the visit was long overdue and argued that it should be more regular. She said that the parliamentary committee represented by the visiting delegation should know what was taking in the province and vice versa.

Regarding the situation in the pay points, Ms Rajbally said that she was impressed by what she had seen and pointed out that the situation had improved. She expressed her sadness though with the peoples’ lives that were lost during robbery related attacks around pay points.

Prof Mbadi, referring to the MEC Prince Zulu, said that his availability on the day and hospitality showed his commitment to helping the poor people. He also said that he was very impressed by what he saw at the pay points visited on the day, saying that security was excellent and there were no long queues. He, however, also pointed to a shortage of CPS staff at pay points and complained that the ones present had no protected attire, something he said should be addressed urgently. He then asked the MEC Prince Zulu if there were any problems regarding people without IDs and birth certificates in the province.

Prince Zulu, in reply, admitted that there were indeed problems related to people without IDs and birth certificates in KwaZulu-Natal. In addressing the problem, he indicated that his department staff had extended its working days to include Saturdays and invited Home Affairs in collaboration with Ukhozi Radio station.

In a follow-up question, Prof Mbadi asked how KwaZulu-Natal province was addressing the problem of people who could not determine their correct ages.

In his reply, Prince Zulu said his department, in close collaboration with Home Affairs and Ukhozi Radio station, was making strides in that regard. He attributed the problem to miscommunication between people and some staff at Home Affairs who did not have a good of IsiZulu and cultural dynamics of the Zulu people.

Ms Borman commended the MEC Prince Zulu on the setting up of the Fraud Squad and expressed for his openness. She asked the MEC to indicate what his department had in place to monitor its relationship with CPS in the province. Commenting on the grant payment system, Ms Borman expressed concern with the fact that most beneficiaries were still queuing for their monies at pay points rather than choosing to access it through the banks and asked if there were any programmes to educate them in that regard.

Responding to Ms Borman’s in put, Prince Zulu said that his department had help desks that assisted people if they had problems. He argued that most people did not buy the idea of banks and he did not what else could be done to address that.

Mr Mhlongo added by saying that his department had to persuade people to access their payments through banks. He said, part of the problem was the fact that bank outlets were few and mostly concentrated to big urban areas. He added that there was also a cultural dimension to the problem of people, who, he said, wanted their monies to be blessed by their ancestors first. The other hurdle, he said, was that of bank charges and indicated that his department was pursuing the Eastern Cape example of negotiating with banks over charges. He also pointed out that contractual terms must be adhered to in their relationship with CPS.

Ms Rwexana thanked the MEC prince Zulu for the positive receiption and said that she was impressed by the involvement of women in most projects. The other thing that impressed her, she said, was the idea of multipurpose centre as an ideal approach to service delivery. She proposed that CPS should work towards bringing their payment machines into halls where beneficiaries could be sheltered.

In response to Ms Rwexana’s latter input, Mr Mhlongo said that he realised that the latter proposal by Ms Rwexana was serious and undertook to look into it in areas where facilities belonged to his department.

Ms Ramotsamai remarked that the idea of a help desk at pay points was a very good one as, she said, it eased the workload of department staff and that of CPS. Commenting on security at pay points, Ms Ramotsamai raised that the number of security personnel was not enough. This, she said, was exacerbated by the outside arrangement of payment machinery by CPS. She advised CPS to relook its security at pay points.

She then asked how it took for a prospective beneficiary to get paid from the point of grant application.

Commenting on the issue of banks and refusal by beneficiaries to use them, Ms Ramotsamai commended the province for considering following the Eastern Cape example in that regard.

Referring to the issue of access to doctors by beneficiaries regarding grant status, Ms Ramotsamai wanted to know the Department of Population Development and Welfare Services in KwaZulu-Natal had managed to secure a doctor at their offices. She asked that, in the light of what she said were complaints from the Eastern Cape social grant beneficiaries and applicants who claimed that they had to cover long distances to consult regarding their social grant status. She also asked how far was the province of KwaZulu-Natal in setting up a one-stop centre comprising, amongst others, the Departments of Home Affairs and Social Development.

On the issue of time taken in processing applications, Mr Mhlongo said, because of the extension in age of Child Support grants and the backlog attached thereto, the process took about 3 months.

On the issue of doctors, Mr Mhlongo said that a panel system was being phased in wherein a doctor would come on different days. He indicated that the doctors had been able to pick up fraudulent cases and were paid R17 per consulting.

On the one-stop centre issue, Mr Mhlongo said the idea was starting but growing steadily.

Ms Borman wanted to know if the department of Population Development and Welfare Services in KwaZulu-Natal was fully staffed or otherwise and how effective it was in dealing with backlogs.

On staffing, Mr Mhlongo said in his reply that his department staff establishment had been reviewed to provide for the growing needs of the department. He added that his department was doing all it could to fill vacant post and was also making use of contract workers. He singled out the implementation of regulation 7 as the only obstacle. He said that his department had advertised posts to no avail and had written to the national government pointing it to the problem.

Ms Tsheole asked if the department of Population Development and Welfare Services in KwaZulu-Natal had any experience with ‘loan sharks’ and burial societies that were deducting monies from beneficiaries’ grant payments and if yes, how it was dealing with them.

She also wanted to know about the incidents of HIV positive who thought by virtue of their HIV status that they were entitled to social grants.

On the issue of the ‘loan sharks’, Mr Mhlongo, in reply, said that was their experience as well in KwaZulu-Natal and were instructing them to stay away from pay points. On top of that, he said they were also trying to educate beneficiaries to resist them as well.

On the issue of HIV/AIDS, Mr Mhlongo’s reply was that they relied on the doctor’s assessment and the extent of the condition of the individual affected.

4. Visit to the Vaalkop pay point at Uitval in Emnambithi – 14 August 2003

The pay point is a community hall. Payment of grants starts at 11h00 in the morning. It serves about 578 pensioners per day.

• 4 Payment machines were detached from the payment vehicles and placed inside the hall.
• No beneficiaries standing on queues were observed – only people seated down.
• There was a Help Desk.
• The sickly and elderly beneficiaries were prioritised.
• The condition of the pay point was hygienic.
• Only 3 security personnel were observed on the day.
• The delegation was told of R50 insurance deductions by CPS.

5. Visit to Ezakheni Social Development District Office – 14 August 2003

The office is located inside premises owned by Ithala.

• The office was generally in good condition and well looked after.

Venue: Rotary Hotel, Ladysmith

Date: 14 August 2003

Chaired by: Mr Mhlongo

• Discussion on observations made during the day’s visit

• Mr S Maphumulo
• Mr S Buthelezi
• Mr M Fukula
• Ms K Rwexana
• Ms M Ramotsamai
• Prof LM Mbadi
• Ms JT Xaba
• SC Kunene
• Ms G Borman
• Ms I Mars
• Ms N Tsheole
• Mr WD Ngcobo
• Mr LFN Nkosi – Regional and Chief Director: Social Security – Midlands Region
• Mrs ES Cele – Head: Social Security – Midlands Region
• Mr V Singh
• Mr M Dlamini
• Mr VN Nyathikazi
• NN Khumalo
• M Buthelezi
• Mr G Mhlongo
• Mrs T Mhlongo
• Mrs N Nkabinde
• Ms S Rajbally
• Mr R Ramsundar
• Mr S Jaganandan

Discussion on observations made during the day’s visit

Mr Nkosi welcomed and thanked the visiting parliamentary delegation for coming to the Midlands Region. He said he would welcome comments from the delegates that were intended to improve the situation.

Ms Tsheole remarked that the main reason for the visit to the Midlands Region was to acquaint themselves with the experiences and challenges faced by the region. She said if they did not come and see for themselves they stood a risk of being theorists. She dismissed the perception that her delegation was there to police. She stressed the point that they were there to learn and ensure that grant beneficiaries were treated appropriately. She said that where there were people who were unemployed and weak it was government’s responsibility to address their plight. Referring to CPS she said the latter was there to stand in the gap where government was unable to operate. She said her delegation expected proper and efficient delivery from CPS. She added that in the event things went wrong government was held responsible. She urged different stakeholders to ensure that people were treated as they should and show ubuntu in dealing with them.

Mr Mhlongo said that he abided by the MEC Zulu’s remarks that he made on the 13 August 2003. He added that the work done by CPS was of a high quality and up to expected standards. He however singled out that the false declaration of some pensioners being by CPS as a big problem. He attributed that to fraud. He also mentioned that those beneficiaries affected by the fraud should show themselves that they were indeed alive.

Ms Ramotsamai remarked that it was good that in their visits they had also touched on the rural areas. She raised a concern with what she said was person continuously giving information through the public system whereas there was a help-desk. She then asked for more light to be shed over murmurings that CPS, the provincial Department of Population Development and Welfare Services and another private company had made arrangements to have money deducted from the beneficiaries’ payouts.

Mr Mhlongo, in reply, asked for the issue to be addressed in Durban on the 15^th August 2003.

Prof Mbadi commended Mr Nkosi for looking after the elderly and disabled saying that the latter were treated well and prioritised before other beneficiaries. He went on to say he was very impressed by the district office, which he said, seemed well-resourced.

Ms Borman also commended the visit to the countryside. She asked for the size of the Midlands Region in terms of radius and the kind of struggles that the region was faced with.

Mr Nkosi replied by saying that the region was serving a number of districts, including sub-offices. At the time, he said the region was dealing with about 94000 beneficiaries. Regarding its radius, Mr Nkosi said that was not easy to explain. In respect of challenges, he said the region had a problem of robbery, shortage of equipment for the help-desk and resources to build halls to accommodate beneficiaries.

Ms Rwexana congratulated officials in the region for the hard work they were doing.

Ms Rajbally wrapped up the discussion session by saying that she was very encouraged to have met the officials and had gained a lot of insight. She said she was particularly encouraged to see old pensioners being brought to pay points by state vehicles.

6. Visit to Umbumbulu Multi-purpose Centre – 15 August 2003

The delegations was told that the centre:

• Has one social worker at present. Provision is being made for the review of the situation of social workers in Umbumbulu area. But that funding was critical in the process of creating more posts.
• Renders social welfare services and no social security services for now.
• Has two district doctors that were paid agreed-upon rates doing reviews and helping with assessing new applicants.
• Offers free office space to NGOs like SANTA, FAMSA, UMZAMO and NICRO.

7. Visit to the Umbumbulu Main Office – Social Development – 15 August 2003

• The office receives about 120 new applications per day.
• It has a doctor for temporary and new disability grant applications.
• Has a processing section for new applications.
• Has a data capturing office, which captures about 220 applications per day. Two officials manning the office share the work.
• Has a Registry for filing. It uses volunteers, most of whom have tertiary education background, to help with the backlog. Volunteers aren’t paid and are treated being in in-service training.
• Has another Registry with files for existing cases.
• Has two permanent Registry clerks.
• Has three Registry rooms two of which are strictly for pension.
• Has a Help Desk.
• Has a social welfare section with nine social workers including those in the sub-office.
• It offers accommodation in terms of office space to NGOs.

8. Visit to the Social Development Office – Illovo Skills Development Centre – 15 August 2003

Illovo Skills Development Centre is a facility under the provincial Department of Social Welfare and Population Development. It situated at Umbumbulu District approximately 5km from Kingsburgh and 40 km from the Durban CBD. The facility came into being as departmental response to skills shortage among the development projects, which focus on poverty alleviation by engaging, targeted communities and group in income generation and job creation.

Its mission to capacitate and develop disadvantaged groups by ensuring maximum utilisation of their potentials and improve their knowledge and skill in order to be self-reliant and escape the poverty trap.

The Centre aims to empower the various targeted groups both socially and economically by providing the following skills training:

• Arts and Craft – Beadwork and Decorative Artwork.
• Boiler production.
• Block making.
• Sewing.
• Welding.
• Computer literacy.
• Business skills.
• Catering.

The targeted beneficiaries of the Centre are:

• The youth.
• Women.
• Street children.
• People with disabilities.
• HIV/AIDS affected.
• The unemployed.

The Centre works in partnership with the following:

• Mondi.
• Mangosuthu Technikon.
• Department of Labour.
• Department of Agriculture.
• Department of Health.
• Department of Education.
• Local Municipality.
• NGOs

9. Visit to Umlazi pay point – Emaweleni – 15 August 2003

Umlazi is the biggest town ship in KwaZulu-Natal. The Umlazi pay point is static and caters for about 32000 beneficiaries whose payment is spread over a period of 17 days per month. About 2000 beneficiaries per day visit it.

• Long queues both inside and outside the pay point.
• 4 payment machines attached to the wall. The payment machines are similar to the ATM machines. They do not work faster than the machines attached to the payment vehicles.
• About 4 security personnel were identified at the pay point.
• Sick and elderly beneficiaries that some members of the delegation talked to indicated that they were not prioritised. This contradicted the explanation by the department officials that the sickly and elderly were prioritised at pay points.
• There was not enough shelter and chairs to cater for the long queues.
• Too many people were being serviced on the day. This was borne witness to by the long queues still at around 12h00.
• The delegation was told of young people who were coming early to queue at the pay point and sell their space to the elderly and sick beneficiaries for money.
• The delegation also told of companies granting beneficiaries loans that should be paid back over 5 months at an instalment of R130 per month.
• The name of Ntsika and Cornerstone burial company was mentioned more than once by some beneficiaries as one of the companies deducting monies from beneficiaries’ grant monies.
• Some beneficiaries complained over what they said were discrepancies over payouts when a beneficiary had died by the burial companies.

The KwaMashu pay point is a community hall. Beneficiaries are paid on different days of the week.

• The visiting delegation was told by some beneficiaries that problematic days for the pay point were Tuesdays and Wednesdays as opposed to the Friday of the visit. They indicated that during those days there are normally long queues and chaos at the pay point.
• Four payment machines in use.
• 3 security personnel armed with big guns.
• Pensioners were seated on queues inside the hall.
• The numbers of beneficiaries at the pay point was considerably smaller on the day.

11. Discussion at Phoenix District Office – 15 August 2003

The office was built in 1991 and is run like a one-stop shop for different services. It offers customers a fairly holistic package. It offers social grants and pension services as well as social welfare services. It has Home Affairs and the variety of other offices like, among others, a clinic for mentally-ill and primary health care.

Social security beneficiaries come and collect grants. It is a static pay point. Payments are done though CPS. It pays about 15000 beneficiaries over a period of 15 days per month. The figure excludes those paid via Banks and Post Office. The office offers social relief for those that are waiting for grant payments.

There is a police station nearby. It has a data capturing system and has a staff complement of 42 and 12 social workers. It also has sowing groups, gardening and block-making projects. It also offers part-time services – nutrition service, epileptic NGO, FAMSA and Narcotics Anonymous.

(b) Input on Ntuzuma District Office –

The office is situated in KwaMashu and was initially designed as a court. There are about 5 pay points in the KwaMashu area and are mostly community halls for whose use the district office pays.

The district office has a reception and referral centre. The office hosts two probation officers and two assistant probation officers who assess kids before they get to courts. The office is working closely with NGOs as a result of which there is a forum meeting monthly.

Ms Ramotsamai remarked that the trip to KwaZulu-Natal province was an eye-opener and that she had learnt a lot. Commenting on infrastructure and capital investment, she said, KwaZulu-Natal had done a lot. She wanted to know about the plans for the Umlazi pay point which, she said, had serious problems of long queues and unprioritized elderly when it came to grant payments.

Mhlongo, in reply, said that his department had tried to decentralized payment system in Umlazi and had consulted beneficiaries about static pay point and offered the maintenance of the status.

Mr Cibi added by indicating that the process to decentralization in Umlazi was underway. Regarding shelter at the pay point, he said that his department was negotiating with the Department of Public Works for more space. Regarding the prioritisation of sickly and elderly at pay points, he promised to look into the matter. He said they were marketing the issue of procurators for the sickly and elderly but also indicated that that had some dynamics too. He further indicated that his department had explored the possibility of grant payments through the banks but stressed that most beneficiaries did not trust banks. He said they were educating beneficiaries in Umlazi that the Umlazi pay point was open the whole day and therefore needed not flock there all at once.

Ms Borman expressed a concern with payments being made at odd times.

Ms Tsheole congratulated KwaZulu-Natal for having started with victim empowerment projects. She suggested that those people providing wheel-chair services at pay points should be listened to and regulated. She expressed gratitude on behalf of the visiting delegation for the interaction and hospitality displayed by the provincial officials.

Mr Mhlongo thanked the visiting parliamentary delegation for the visiting KwaZulu-Natal province and the objective manner in which it had looked at everything. He urged the delegation to come back to the province to see progress.

Mr E Saloojee DATE

COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON

Mr MC Fukula DATE

COMMITTEE SECRETARY