(Subcommittee) SABC Board: Interviews day 2

Meeting report

At the start of each interview, the Chairperson explained the Committee’s mandate in line with the Constitution and the purpose of this interview which would last about 45 minutes. He noted that Committee members regarded this process as more of an engagement to know more about candidate rather than a formal interview. candidates would have five minutes to introduce themselves and demonstrate the experience and expertise that they would bring to the SABC board. The candidates should bear in mind that Committee Members had already reviewed their CV. Each question and answer should take only five minutes and the Chairperson would ask follow up questions for clarity. The candidate would be given a three-minute time slot to make concluding remarks.

After each interview, the Chairperson noted the procedural steps following the interview process, assured the candidates that the Committee Secretariat was always available for administrative queries and thanked them for taking part in the interview. He assured them that the process was transparent and they can follow the Committee’s engagements with the other candidates.

Candidate 1: Adv Tseliso Thipanyane
Dr M Basopu (ANC) stated that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a future recurrence and how would he recover the public funds squandered?

Ms D Kohler Barnard (DA) noted the candidate’s vast experience in the human rights field but asked if the candidate possessed any experience in the media and journalism field.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate's thoughts on the SABC sacking its head of news.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes he would make to the SABC if appointed.

Ms Kohler Barnard pointed out that the SABC competes in a difficult environment. She asked for the candidate’s thoughts on several recent events at the SABC. The SABC had sacked 600 employees resulting in a loss of expertise and replaced them with new 400 staff with little training given to them. She believed this resulted in the SABC’s lack of content and subsequent drop in viewership.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what strategies he would have to financially turn the SABC around as it is in massive debt and is possibly looking for further bailout from government.

Mr V Pambo (EFF) asked for the candidate’s approach to making the SABC self-sufficient. In the past financial year, it had a R200 million revenue loss and a drop in audience despite having R800 million designated for content creation unused. One of the Treasury bailout conditions was that the SABC must control its bloated salary bill and 621 employees lost their jobs as a result. But the SABC is not showing any sign of positive improvement. He found it very unfair that when disaster strikes, it is always the employees at junior level that are the scapegoat and suffer while management escapes unaffected.

Ms Z Majozi (IFP) noted the candidate’s expertise in the private sector and asked if he had conflict resolution skills to be able to disagree with his colleagues whilst uniting them and persuading them to reach consensus. Members would not want to see a divided SABC board as they had seen so many times in the past.

The Chairperson asked the candidate, if appointed, how he would manage the different relationships with the executive as headed by the Minister, Parliament, the board, etc. He emphasised that although those stakeholders may have different understanding and approach to the SABC, the objectives are the same which was to make the SABC better.

The Chairperson noted the candidate’s experience in the human rights field and wanted to hear his input on how he could utilise the SABC to highlight and educate people on human rights issues.

Candidate 2: Mr Quentin Green
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate, given his extensive experience in news and programming, what his solutions would be to turn the SABC’s finances around.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate's view on government’s proposal to replace the TV licence with a form of levy so that all persons, regardless of owning a TV set, would need to pay that levy.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate's view on the SABC sacking its former head of news.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate, since the country is approaching its 2024 national election, what changes he would make to the SABC if appointed.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked for the candidate’s opinion on the SABC's recent decision to axe over 600 very experienced employees and replace them with 400 new staff with little training offered to them. She believed the lack of expertise at the SABC was a direct cause for the drop in viewership.

Mr Molala asked for the candidate’s comments on the SABC 's high irregular expenditure, as shown by its audit and its high salary bill which remained a concern even after retrenchments.

Mr Molala asked the candidate what the contributory percentage of the SABC commercial arm was to its public mandate.

Mr Molala asked the candidate if he was appointed to the board, and how he would manage the different relationships with the Minister, the Portfolio Committee, the Board, etc. He observed that the failure to correctly manage those relationships was a key contributory cause of the instability of the previous SABC boards.

Mr Pambo decried the unequal coverage by SABC which was possibly driven by political motivation as its head of news had refused to cover the EFF election conference on the grounds of ‘editorial decision’ whereas coverage of the ANC covered the tiniest details. He asked for the candidate’s comment on that.

Mr Pambo noted that the SABC had not used R800 million that should have been utilised for content creation purposes whilst its viewership dropped substantially. He reiterated Ms Kohler Barnard’s question on the SABC’s axing of 600 employees, leaving a huge skills gap that had not been filled. He attributed such to the SABC’s bad leadership and decision-making skills. It is unfair that when disaster strikes, it is always the employees at junior level being the scapegoat and who suffer while management escapes unaffected. He asked the candidate if he believed that it was high time that people should start making those in charge, senior management, accountable. He asked if those senior managers were overpaid.

Dr Basopu asked the candidate to provide clarity on why he left the SABC after having invested so much time and energy in the entity and why he wanted to return as a board member.

Dr Basopu stated that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. He asked if appointed, what measures the candidate would put in place to avoid future recurrence and what would he put in place to recover the public funds that had been squandered.

Ms Kohler Barnard expressed her appreciation for the candidate’s response and that people with his experience should not be allowed to retire. Given the candidate’s deep understanding of how a TV broadcaster or a radio station should work, she wanted to hear the candidate’s perspective on the SABC’s unspent R800 million that should have been utilised for content creation and the loss of expertise at the entity.

Ms Majozi asked the candidate what expertise he would bring to the SABC if appointed and what type of board he envisaged.

Candidate 3: Mr Mpho Tsedu
Ms Z Majozi (IFP) noted the candidate’s experience and the potential contribution which he promised to bring to the SABC in his introduction. Given that, she wanted to hear the candidate’s opinion on reducing the SABC salary bill for its long-term sustainability as it faces various challenges and Treasury's bailout conditions.

Ms Majozi asked the candidate to describe what he envisaged an efficient and productive board should be that would be beneficial to the long-term sustainability of the SABC for South Africans. She also asked what leadership skills he would bring to the board.

Mr Pambo noted the candidate’s extensive experience in content creation having worked as a senior producer and presenter from 2013 to 2018 and having similar responsibilities from 2006 to 2008. Given his extensive experience, he asked what the candidate would do to attract more audience and avoid the situation which the SABC currently faces having R800 million set aside specifically for content whereas it had incurred a R600 million loss with significant audience loss.

Mr Pambo asked how the candidate would maintain his neutrality and the independence of the SABC since a board member is a special advisor to and enjoys close proximity to the Minister. He noted political interference in the SABC in terms of the unequal coverage. The EFF only gets coverage on the SABC when its commander-in-chief addresses voters whereas at many ANC conferences, one sees old men in oversized jackets with no sense of fashion, but those conferences still get coverage.

Mr Pambo asked the candidate to express his view that when failure strikes at the SABC, it is always the senior management and board that are exonerated whereas employees at the lower end are punished and sacked.

Mr Pambo commented that the SABC only covered snippets of the EFF and PAC political party conferences whilst covering whole events for the ANC. People are losing interest in the ANC. The EFF and other political parties are drawing audience. Equal coverage of the activities of other political parties would bring back and generate more audience for the SABC. Impartiality is very important for any news platform and it should never be involved in political party factional fights.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked what changes the candidate would make and how he would prevent bias in the SABC in the run up to elections. She observed that the SABC has been shifting from a public broadcaster to a state broadcaster as political parties are trying to take over coverage in favour of their political agenda.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what the causes were that led to the financial demise of the SABC despite R800 million being available for content creation but unspent.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked if appointed what the candidate would do to recover the looted funds at the SABC as a result of corruption revealed by the Zondo Commission.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate for his view on the sacking of the SABC head of news who was later exonerated by the CCMA but not re-instated to the position but paid off.

Dr Basopu asked the candidate the reasons for his resignation yet he now wanted to return to the SABC.

Dr Basopu asked how the candidate could ensure that his good ideas to improve the SABC would be effectively communicated and accepted by his colleagues.

Mr Molala asked the candidate to provide a solution to the complex dynamic which the SABC faced. 40% of the SABC’s assets such as buildings have been sold and it had even closed regional offices. There are also pleas from South Africans to accommodate all 12 languages in South Africa. He asked the candidate how he were to achieve that.

Mr Molala listed some of the troubling issues at the SABC and asked the candidate to comment on that. The SABC has been flagged for its consistent irregular expenditure of which a large part can be attributed to the high salary bill. As a result, the SABC retrenched employees and had sold buildings to recoup some funds but that did not prevent a further loss of R210 million in the past financial year. It was said that the retrenchment would save R400 million but former SABC board members divulged that among those who were sacked were highly-skilled people whereas the newly-employed cannot fill the skills void left by the retrenchment.

Mr Molala asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of the role of the SABC’s commercial arm in line with the transformation agenda which he had mentioned in his response.

Candidate 4: Mr Shadrack Bokaba
Mr Molala asked the candidate to give an assessment of the SABC's performance as an ordinary citizen. In critiquing the SABC, Mr Molala asked that he give inputs on the areas it needs to make improvements and his proposed solutions to the various challenges he identified.

Mr Molala pressed the candidate to critique the current SABC board.

Ms Kohler Barnard needed clarity on the candidate’s qualification Doctor of Philosophy.

Mr Pambo found the candidate’s CV misleading since his PhD was an ongoing process and he had not been awarded the degree yet. It should be put as PhD candidate on his CV.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate to provide details about when the National Film and Video Foundation (NFVF) had been caught in controversy as some of its members had spent a huge amount on travelling in 2018. This happened under his watch as the Acting CEO.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what changes he would make to prevent bias in the run up to the 2024 elections.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate to express his view on the axing of 600 employees at the SABC and its effect on the subsequent content issue. She asked if he believed that the loss of expertise was caused by the axing of employees.

Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s vast experience in theatre and music. She asked what positive contribution he would bring to the SABC board, especially using the unspent R800 million earmarked for content creation.

Given the candidate’s experience in content creation, Mr Pambo asked him to identify the possible causes that the SABC was sitting with unspent content creation funds despite loss of audience and loss of revenue in the past financial year. He viewed it as a deliberate sabotage to bring the entity down.

Mr Pambo asked the candidate what he had done to assist local and disadvantaged content creators to get into the industry.

The Chairperson asked the candidate what transferrable experience he could use in his position as the Acting CEO of NFVF to combat corrupt practices in the SABC.

Given the high chance of encountering political interference, the Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding on how if appointed he would deal with the Minister as the executive and Parliament which performs oversight.

Candidate 5: Prof Franz Krüger
Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what the SABC board should have done about the irregular sacking of the former SABC head of news.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what he would changed to promote free journalism for journalists as the country is running towards its 2024 election.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate given the complex and competitive environment which the SABC was competing in, what the candidate believed that the SABC board should have done when the entity had decided to sack 600 of its employees and then rehired over 400 people without being able to close skills gap. Ms Kohler Barnard believed that this loss of skills has a direct impact on the little programmes which the entity could offer which inevitably led to the plummet of viewership and listenership.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what the SABC board should have done to curb those corrupt practices as revealed by the Zondo Commission.

Since the candidate’s main area of expertise is journalism, Ms Kohler Barnard asked what he thought was the most important thing to turn around the SABC.

Mr Molala asked the candidate to give an assessment of the entity’s governance, content platforms and financial sustainability.

Mr Molala asked the candidate how he could structure the SABC programmes in such a way to promote national cohesion and the creation of one national identity.

Mr Molala asked the candidate to give his input on the SABC’s commercial arm.

Mr Pambo noted in the candidate’s response that some Cabinet minister had instructed him what to do. Although the candidate indicated that he had not obeyed the instruction, he wanted clarity on who this minister had been, what was the instruction and what happened thereafter.

Mr Pambo asked about the candidate’s title Adjunct Professor since it was not a common academic rank. He sought clarity on the standard process for becoming a professor. Mr Pambo recalled his student experience at the time when the candidate was caught in controversy as many had raised the question if the candidate was indeed qualified to be called a professor. He wanted a clear indication of the number of publications under the candidate's name. He noted that over the years many struggling black associate professors at Wits University left because they were unable to be recognised as a proper professor. Overall, he believed that white professors had less in terms of production of publications than their black counterparts. Experience has always been used as a reason to disqualify black associate professors.

Candidate 6: Mr Zolile Zamisa
Dr Basopu remarked that it was always encouraging to see young candidates and hear about their innovative ideas. He asked the candidate if and how he could effectively communicate and persuade other much older board members about his ideas.

Dr Basopu stated that the State Capture report had identified issues such as the glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices that were happening at the SABC, so he asked if he was appointed a board member, what measures the candidate would put in place to avoid such recurrences in future and what measures that he would put in place to recover the public fund that had been squandered.

Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s heavy involvement with the ANC from his university years. She thus asked to candidate to convince Committee Members that how he would uphold media impartiality and adhere to the principles of a public broadcaster rather than drifting to those of a state broadcaster.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate to explain his career changes every year over the past four years.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate for his view on the SABC’s sacking of its former head of news who was later exonerated by the CCMA. The SABC did not reinstate but simply paid her out.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what changes he would make to prevent bias in the run up to the 2024 elections.

Ms Kohler Barnard pointed out that the SABC is competing in a difficult environment. The SABC had sacked 600 employees resulting in a loss of expertise and replaced them later with 400 new staff with little training given to them. She believed this resulted in the SABC’s lack of content and its subsequent drop in viewership. She asked the candidate what plans he had in mind to turn the situation around.

Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate's response about using children’s or educational programmes to make the entity more commercially viable and asked if he had looked at relevant research on the subject. To her knowledge, the SABC is in debt to many of those commercially driven programmes.

Mr Molala asked the candidate for more details on how he planned to make the SABC build more partnerships as well as his plan to turn around the SABC.

Mr Molala asked how the candidate planned to use the SABC as a key point in the nation building process to build one national identity as well as reflecting its diverse culture.

Mr Pambo noted the candidate’s heavy involvement with the ANC, understood the candidate’s aspiration as a young person as well as his presumed vision for his organisation which was the ANC. Given his experience in the South African Police Service (SAPS) and his recalling the incident in which the late Minister of Communications instructing what content should have been communicated to the public, Mr Pambo was interested how the candidate had handled the matter at the time and how he would abide by the impartiality rule of a public broadcaster.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to explain how he would ensure the independence of the SABC as a public broadcaster given the roles of different stakeholders such as the Minister, the Board as well as the Portfolio Committee that would all be exerting influence on the entity.

Candidate 7: Mr Langa Zita
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s political career as an ANC MP for ten years who is currently involved in the South African Community Party. Given that the candidate is so immersed in politics, she asked him to demonstrate the requisite impartiality as expected of a public broadcaster.

Ms Kohler Barnard was impressed with the candidate’s educational qualifications but she sought clarity on one of the cited job positions as an employed journalist at an East London news agency around 1990s. She was unfamiliar with that news agency and asked for how long the job was and the job responsibilities.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate's view on the sacking of the SABC head of news who was later exonerated by the CCMA but not re-instated to the position but was paid off.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked what changes the candidate would make to prevent bias in the run up to the 2024 elections.

Ms Kohler Barnard pointed out that the SABC is competing in a difficult environment. She asked the candidate to give his thoughts on recent events at the SABC. The SABC had sacked 600 employees resulting in a loss of expertise and replaced them with 400 new staff with little training given to them. She believed this resulted in the SABC’s lack of content and its subsequent drop in viewership despite it having a whopping R800 million designated for content creation that was unspent.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate about his plan to turn around the SABC both financially and increase its audience.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked if appointed, what the candidate would do to recover the looted funds at the SABC as a result of corruption revealed by the Zondo Commission.

Dr Basopu asked the candidate what skills and strategies he could bring to the SABC board. Most particularly, he asked if he had the ability to convince and persuade colleagues with different views about work aspects to turn the SABC around.

Dr Basopu stated that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a recurrence in future?

Mr Pambo highlighted that one of the key strategies contained in the SABC turnaround strategy was the sacking of 621 employees. He himself was unconvinced of its effectiveness as amongst them were skills essential to the SABC. He believed that had the SABC spent the R800 million designated for content creation, it would not now be facing the conundrum of audience drop, and decreased advertisement revenue. He found it unfair that the failure of SABC leadership was now suffered by the employees. He asked the candidate’s input on the matter.

Mr Pambo asked for the candidate's opinion on the unequal coverage by the SABC. The public broadcaster had covered almost every aspect of the ANC election conferences whereas the SABC did not cover the EFF election conferences. When the EFF called the SABC, it could not even provide a consistent set of criteria to justify such bias and favouritism.

Mr Molala asked the candidate how he planned to use the SABC as a key point in the nation building process to build one national identity as reflected by its diverse cultures.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to explain how he would ensure the independence of the SABC as a public broadcaster given the roles of different stakeholders such as Minister, Board as well as the Portfolio Committee would all be exerting influence on the entity.

Candidate 8: Mr Lumko Mtimde
Ms Kohler Barnard noted the candidate’s close work association with government. Until a year or two ago, the candidate had worked as an advisor to the Presidency. Given that close proximity, she asked him to give assurance to Members that he understood the principle of a public broadcaster. If appointed, would the candidate be impartial in the decision-making process and not be influenced by any his government thinking or influence.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate's view of the sacking of the SABC head of news who was later exonerated by the CCMA but not re-instated to the position but was paid off.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked what changes the candidate would make to prevent bias in the run up to the 2024 elections.

Ms Kohler Barnard pointed out that the SABC is competing in a difficult environment. She asked the candidate to give his thoughts on recent events at the SABC. The SABC had sacked 600 employees resulting in a loss of expertise and replaced them with 400 new staff with little training given to them. She believed this resulted in the SABC’s lack of content and its subsequent drop in viewership despite it having a whopping R800 million designated for content creation that was unspent. She found it heart-breaking that some of those sacked employees had dedicated almost their whole lives to the SABC.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked how the candidate planned to turn around the SABC both financially and bring back its audience.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked how the candidate planned to deal with the corruption as revealed by the Zondo Commission.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked why the candidate had not completed his five-year term and only served from 2011 to 2013 as an SABC board member.

Dr Basopu stated that the State Capture report had identified glaring mismanagement of funds and corrupt practices at the SABC. If appointed, what measures would the candidate put in place to avoid a future recurrence and how would he recover the public funds that had been squandered.

Mr Molala sought clarity as there was an allegation that the candidate had resigned from the SABC Board in 2013 because of 1) the infighting with the then board chairperson; 2) outstanding academic transcripts to support his qualifications which thus disqualified him.

Mr Molala highlighted the importance of having an effective and workable turnaround strategy for the SABC as the Committee would want to see it restored to its former glory. He asked about the candidate’s perspectives on financial sustainability as well as governance at the SABC. He asked that he reply in the context of managing the relationship of the Board and Parliament.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked why the Public Protector had felt the need to protect the candidate on numerous occasions. She pointed to the candidate's tenure at the SABC which was the darkest moment in the SABC history and the candidate resigned before the entity hit rock bottom. She could not help but wonder if he jumped ship before it sank despite himself having been caught in the drama.

Ms Kohler Barnard said the candidate had explicitly stated in the past that he supported the proposed media tribunal which would give the state power to regulate journalists. As a former journalist, she disagreed with any form of curtailed freedom of expression. She asked for his input on that.

Candidate 9: Mr Khathutshelo Ramukumba
Ms Kohler Barnard noted that the candidate had served as Chief Financial Officer at the South African Post Office in 2020. The SAPO owes R700 million in medical aid back payments for its employees. It is not paying staff UIF and pension benefits. Her view is there is massive fraud going on at SAPO. Given the disastrous situation at SAPO, she asked if it happened under his watch.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate for his view of the sacking of the SABC head of news who was later exonerated by the CCMA but not re-instated to the position but paid off.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what changes he would make in the run up to the 2024 election to prevent bias.

Ms Kohler Barnard said that the SABC had not spent the R800 million allocated for content creation despite the significant drop in its audiences shifting to eTV and Netflix. Apparently the lack of content at SABC is one of the direct causes. She asked the candidate if he believed that the lack of content was caused by SABC decision to sack 600 employees which had left a huge skills gap that had not since been replaced.

Given the candidate’s financial skills as an auditor and chartered accountant, she asked the candidate to outline his strategies to turnaround the entity.

Mr Molala noted that the candidate had experience as a CEO. According to the candidate’s understanding of good governance principles, Mr Molala asked him to identify which areas at the SABC are not in line with those principles.

Mr Molala asked the candidate to indicate the necessary partnerships that the SABC would need to implement its turnaround strategies.

Mr Molala asked the candidate how he planned to use the SABC as a platform for nation building.

The Chairperson asked the candidate in the context of nation building and being faced with different stakeholders, what the candidate would do to ensure the independence of the SABC.

Candidate 10: Mr Thembisa Fakude
Ms Kohler Barnard described the 180 degrees shift in the candidate’s career journey fascinating from working in risk assurance at Alexander Forbes for five years to radio for thirteen years. She wanted the candidate to elaborate a bit more on this transition in his career.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate what changes he would make in the run up to the 2024 elections since political interference was bound to happen to enable a particular political agenda.

Ms Kohler Barnard said that the SABC had not spent the R800 million allocated for content creation despite the significant drop in its audiences shifting to eTV and Netflix. Apparently the lack of content at SABC is one of the direct causes. She asked the candidate if he believed that the lack of content was caused by SABC decision to sack 600 employees which had left a huge skills gap that had not since been replaced.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked the candidate if appointed what he would do scotch the corrupt practices as revealed by the Zondo Commission.

Mr Molala asked the candidate to give an indication of his understanding of the good governance and essential partnerships for the development of the SABC to turn the entity around.

Given the candidate’s international experience, Mr Molala asked the candidate how he planned to use the SABC as a key point in the nation building process to build one national identity.

Noted the candidate’s work experience at Al Jazeera, Mr Molala asked how the candidate could use his experience to market the SABC to expand beyond South African borders and be a voice of Africa.

The Chairperson asked the candidate if appointed what he would do to ensure an independent public broadcaster whilst dealing with the influences coming from sources such as the Ministry, Parliament, Board and the executive.

The Chairperson had earlier noted Ms Kohler Barnard ’s suggestion to redistribute the interview programmes on Thursday 15 and Friday 16 September. Since caucus takes place on Thursday morning and plenary session takes place in the afternoon, he suggested the Committee Secretariat communicate with two candidates if their engagement could be rescheduled to Thursday. He would keep Committee Members posted.

The Chairperson indicated that Ms Nomazulu Mda had withdrawn from the interview process.

The meeting was adjourned.