ICASA & Film and Publication Board & Brand SA Annual Performance Plan, with Deputy Minister

Meeting report

The Chairperson said that the Winnie Mandela documentary has raised a lot of public interest. Thus, those who are within that space should ensure that some of the gaps were filmed and were corrected.

Mr M Kalako (ANC) said that the Committee should make time in its programme to deal with the problems at SABC. He also raised the awarding of the security tender and wondered if the Office of the Chairperson had received any correspondence from the SABC on that matter. Thirdly, one of the SABC Board members, Mr Kgalema Mohuba, went to court about the refusal to award him his doctorate. It surfaced that he did not write the thesis himself; he paid two Zimbabweans to write up the thesis. Hence, the university refused to award the qualification. He suggested that the Committee should liaise with the university because this was a very serious matter. The Department was present, and it must be involved in dealing with these matters. The board issue must be dealt with expeditiously.

Ms P Van Damme (DA) suggested that the Committee should get a report about Mr Mohuba from the Board and the university and take appropriate action as the accounting authority. She indicated that she has received a lot of complaints from SABC staff about programme changes. She asked that the SABC be informed to brief the Committee about these matters tomorrow, as well as the changes at SAFM.

The Chairperson agreed with the Members. When the Committee meets SABC tomorrow, issues in the public domain needed to be dealt with thoroughly. The Committee had been accused on Radio 702 of allegedly appointing a criminal. The matters were raised when Mr Mobuba was interviewed, he responded to all the questions and he got appointed. The Committee was not taking kindly to some of the things that were said in the public domain by the media.

Deputy Minister of Communications remarks
Deputy Minister of Communications, Ms Pinky Kekana, submitted apologies for her absence at the previous committee meeting and late arrival at this meeting. As a Department the mission is to create an enabling environment for communication services to all South Africans. One of the entities that ensure that the objective is achieved is ICASA. She emphasized that the Department of Communications (DoC) did not have sufficient funding to address all the challenges within the department and its entities. The APP process spoke to budget allocations and the programmes that were targeted to be achieved.

There were 50 audit findings of which 38 have been addressed. There is an audit action plan that will ensure that there is no recurrence of the findings. About R124 million was surrendered to National Treasury and the austerity measures that ICASA has embarked on meant not filling some critical vacancies to ensure that ICASA was financially sustainable.

She indicated that there was progress on the Chief Operating Officer matter, but this will be highlighted in detail during the presentation.

Discussion
Ms Van Damme wanted to know the current status of Mr Rubben Mohlaloga as the Chairperson at ICASA – is he still chairing meetings at ICASA, if not, who is?

Ms Nomonde Gongxeka-Seopa, ICASA Council Member, said the issue with the Chairperson has not been concluded yet. He was still chairing the meetings until certain measures were conducted, he will continue chairing in that capacity.

Mr Kalako said that was the problem as this postponement obliterates the progress of ICASA and the Committee. Members were worried about the fact that he was still chairing meetings amidst the controversy. What are the implications?

Mr Willington Ngwepe, Chief Executive Officer: ICASA said the organisation was also concerned about those implications; hence it sought legal advice on the matter by a senior counsel based on the provisions of the legislation. The opinion can be shared with the Committee, and this was done to ensure that there was comfort in the organisation that there will be progress and security.

Ms Van Damme recalled that the Deputy Minister previously indicated that as soon as the Committee has triggered a process, the Department will invoke the relevant section of the legislation that will suppport the process of dismissal. She wanted to know what happened to that and why was Mr Mohlaloga still chairing meetings.

The Deputy Minister said this was a process and the Minister was dealing with it. For now she will report to the Minister on the expectations of the Committee and it would be updated as soon as the process was concluded.

Ms V Van Dyk (DA) said that the Deputy Minister and the Minister should furnish the Committee with time frames. She suggested that within five working days the matter should be finalised.

ICASA response to matters previously raised by the Committee
Ms Gongxeka-Seopa provided feedback on the matters raised by the Committee:
- Moratorium on community broadcasting services which will be reviewed upon the finalisation of the processes which are currently underway;
- Complaint about the Multichoice and ANN7 relationship – ICASA is currently considering both of the letters it received on 29 March to determine how to proceed with the matter
- Licensing for Free to Air Television broadcasting services – a final decision is expected by 31 March 2018; - Update on vacancies – only three positions await assessment, with 11 positions under recruitment and 24 positions frozen until September 2018 as a cost cutting measure.

ICASA response to matters raised by Auditor General and Audit Action Plan progress
Mr Willington Ngwepe, ICASA Chief Executive Officer, took the Members through the measures to address the AG findings and indicated that he has implemented adequate controls to ensure thorough review of the indicators as set out in the Strategic Plan and APP to ensure compliance with the Framework for Programme Performance Information. He said regular training and workshops have been scheduled for all members of management and SMC staff on SCM requirements, applicable laws and regulations including Instruction Notes and Circulars issued by Treasury. The SCM policy was updated as well as Subsistence and Travel Policy to comply with current Treasury’s regulations and circulars. The Internal Audit function is performing stringent and proactive quality assurance of performance information. Lastly, timeous payment of suppliers was now part of the APP; in addition, divisional heads were held accountable for timeous acceptance and or review of deliverables to facilitate ease of the payment process.

ICASA Annual Performance Plan for 2018/19
Mr Willington Ngwepe, ICASA Chief Executive Officer, said ICASA received an allocation of R465 million for the current financial year. Under Programme One, the Head Office will be relocating during 2018/19 and there will be establishment of Northern Cape and North West regional office.

With regards to MTEF budget reductions and funding constraints, a total amount of R124.7 million was surrendered to the National Revenue Fund as required by National Treasury. Included in this transfer was R61 million allocated to cover the relocation cost and R36 million allocated to ICASA as a start-up fund. These budget cuts left ICASA with a huge budget deficit which will have a negative impact on the implementation of the mandate. ICASA is reviewing the 2018/19 APP with a view to motivating for amendments to remove projects that could be unfunded.

Due to reduced MTEF baseline allocations, ICASA will be unable to afford these over the MTEF period:
- Operational costs which include the regional office relocation and tenant installation cost; and
- Equipment and projects, ICASA would need R29 million for equipment alone but the current resources were very limited. The procurement of vehicles will be limited which will affect the footprint of ICASA.
- ICASA needs to start planning for the monitoring of the 2019 elections. The current equipment is extremely depreciated but it was currently considering employing a external service provider to assist.

Discussion
The Chairperson requested more explanation about the Head Office relocation and if everything was in place for the necessary preparations. He asked ICASA to outline the recruitment criteria for the graduate development programme.

Ms Van Dyk asked if the positions outlined on slide 25 were advertised. She asked about the timeframe for the procedures that need to be followed for the lifting of the moratorium on community broadcasting services. There was no mention of disabled people in ICASA on slide five.

There were certain radio stations that operated as community radio stations but were owned by big holding companies that enrich themselves. It seemed ICASA did not have a problem with issuing licences to them. She asked how ICASA ensured that there were no holding companies involved in the community radio stations, and stopped issuing licences to radio stations that were owned by big companies. Are certain requirements considered before issuing licences to radio stations? The signal shutdown of certain community radio stations was also raised.

On litigation, ICASA should indicate how many cases ICASA was involved in and how much has been spent on those cases thus far.

Ms Van Damme was pleased that the Multichoice complaint was dealt with and ICASA stood its ground when Multichoice invited it to view the files in their offices and it refused. She was looking forward to the matter proceeding and being concluded. She appealed to ICASA to refrain from granting the licence to ANN7 until the matter was resolved.

She asked for more detail about what was being done to ensure that there was a smooth election process next year. She would like to see ICASA doing more research on the technological threats that would face the elections and ensure that those threats were dealt with prior to elections. She was looking forward to the broadcasting regulations, but she would like to see stronger regulations on campaigning coverage.

Ms M Matshoba (ANC) asked for more clarity on the Multichoice and ANN7 complaint, she was not impressed by the outcome of the response. On Programme 4 on page 33, ICASA identified six to seven provinces for their roadmap but it did not mention which provinces.

On page 39, on the budget per programme on the procurement of vehicles for new regional offices, what happened to the old vehicles, why was ICASA not making use of the old vehicles if funding remained a constraint?

Mr N Xaba (ANC) asked how ICASA would deal with incorrect reporting. On ICASA’s role in the elections and its inability to purchase equipment for the monitoring of elections, there should not be any apology about its ability to attend to this, but rather outline the concern encompassed by a solution.

Mr Kalako suggested that the Committee would need to interact with ICASA on its preparations for the election so that clarity was established on how the challenges would be dealt with. That would assist the Committee to satisfy itself that those challenges will certainly be dealt with. On the spectrum, the issue with the Minister of Telecommunications was based on ICASA’s desire to auction the spectrum – how far is the matter?

Ms Van Dyk said on slide 27, one of the goals was to ensure that communication services were provided at affordable cost, and she asked ICASA’s position on data costs. Secondly, in some rural areas there were problems with connectivity infrastructure, so how do cell phone companies assist with this.

The Chairperson asked if there was a programme to capacitate the Councillors to understand the technical side of ICASA.

Responses
Ms Gongxeka-Seopa asked for more details on the community radio station concern raised by Ms Van Dyk so that ICASA can look into it. As for the radio stations that have had their signal shut down, ICASA got hold of Sentech to request the list to understand what the problem was. A meeting was scheduled with Sentech for Friday to deal with the matter.

On the 2019 elections, work is already underway for preparations and draft timelines have been put in place; a benchmark study has already started. ICASA was aware of the technological threats but most importantly dealing with fake news during this process was critical. However, work was underway to deal with these challenges.

Based on work done, ICASA generated about R1.4 billion which went to Treasury but ICASA received a R400 million allocation over the MTEF. The resources are very limited for the scope of work that ICASA is responsible for. ICASA was aware of the scope of the elections and there is currently work on the ground to ensure that any potential challenges are addressed.

Mr Ngwepe said that the relocation tender process started a long time ago but ICASA had received advice to re-advertise the tender. The process will be finalised by Treasury, hopefully a final decision on the successful bidder would be issued by July.

The Chairperson asked if ICASA was satisfied that the tender bidding process was clean and clear of any corruption.

Mr Ngwepe said he was comfortable that the process has been clean and proper to date, and he has taken the initiative to ask questions where there were any reservations.

The graduate development programme is an open programme advertised objectively and normal recruitment processes were followed but ICASA was biased towards young people and those coming from previously disadvantaged backgrounds would be given preference. He was not aware of anyone in the programme employed through nepotism.

On the timelines for lifting the moratorium, the public hearings would be held in September and then hopefully by the end of the financial year the process will be finalised. It was only after public hearings that the regulations will be finalised. If the processes can be finalised in Quarter 3, then the regulations will be finalised but this is an annual target set by ICASA so it was allowing itself to deal with it appropriately.

ICASA will ensure that it updates the complainant, Ms Phumzile Van Damme, on the suggestion that ICASA conduct an inquiry into payments made by Multichoice to ANN7; the suggestion was received and noted. Detailed information on the provinces targeted for monitoring will be provided at a later stage with the permission of the Members.

On infrastructure and the social responsibility of the industry players, three weeks ago the industry and ICASA appeared before the Select Committee on Communications and information was furnished on the corporate social investment (CSI), and that information can be furnished to Committee as well as it was quite detailed.

On infrastructure specifically, when one looks at the network roll out, the level of 2G roll out is far reaching. As for 3G, this is at an advanced stage. And so far the 2G has been operating well in the rural and remote areas.

On capacitation of board members, ICASA has not yet implemented a programme but there are programmes for the development of the staff but no structural programme for board members to capacitate them for technical side of ICASA’s work. This is something that will be looked at going forward.

Ms Palesa Kadi, ICASA Councillor, added that ICASA is a Member of the Institute of Directors in SA and Members were obliged to attend courses and programmes conducted by the Institute, and that is about the only training or programme available to them.

As for community broadcasters, Ms Kadi said that ICASA had undertaken a review of the regulatory framework of the community broadcasting sector which now outlines the changes and improvements that should be done in the sector, as well as the regulations on ownership structures we should be advocating for. Community Radio Stations were meant to be controlled and run by the communities themselves but it appears that there is a blurred line in that regard – because there are trusts and holding companies that own community radio stations as categorically outlined by Ms Van Dyk. The regulatory framework sought to address these blurred lines. In the review findings, we have come up with recommendations on how ICASA should be looking at ownership of community broadcasting.

On sustainability, the legislation was very loose about allowing the registration of community broadcasting services. ICASA made regulations which now regularize the issuing of licences. There is a lot of research that needs to be done before licensing. With the current regulations, the environment has been tightened up in that regard. It has been a long process, and there is a process underway. Provincial road shows will be held to inform people on how ICASA aims to handle community broadcasting.

On monitoring and evaluation on the ground, some of the elements that have been brought up before fall squarely on how the licences operate on the ground. We have a division which looks into compliance monitoring and they produce reports on a monthly and quarterly basis indicating the state of compliance for licences. Those reports are presented to the Council, and there are regional offices across the country with officers that actually check if the radio stations are complying with the licence requirements.

Mr Ngwepe said the response from Multichoice was that the correspondence sent to them did not constitute a complaint because it did not raise adequate grounds for charges or corruption. In fact, the complaint was deemed flawed because it did not contain facts; thus, Multichoice would not even be entertaining it – this was legal advice ICASA received from the counsel of Multichoice.

On data costs, ICASA is in the process of amending the service charter regulations and these will come out at the end of this month. The regulations will deal with the expiry of data (as raised by consumers) and with data bundle prices as well as norms and standards.

The second phase will deal strictly with prices; it will be undertaken as part of the market review as well as the recommendations that will be issued by the Competition Commission upon completion of the market review. As for the litigation, the status is that the matter is still live in court; however, there were processes underway to find a way to take the matter out of court and those engagements are happening at the highest level of government, so he could not comment on it.

Brand South Africa on its Annual Performance Plan for 2018/19
Ms Babalwa Ngonyama, Brand SA deputy board chairperson, said BSA was established in 2002 to manage the brand of South Africa. It is responsible for proactive marketing of the brand as well as for reputation management strategies.

She highlighted the following key issues the 2018/19 APP sought to address:
- reputation of the democratic government
- capacity of the state
- potential of the Nation Brand.

How the key issues will be addressed:
- Expand the Play your Part outreach initiative and rollout internationally through its Country Offices;
- Regularly communicate progress against the dashboard of Downgrade Recovery Plan initiatives and indicators.
- Develop a reactive messaging plan to ensure a coherent government response to emerging crises.
- Ensure a balanced narrative of the Nation Brand is transmitted by sharing positive stories – profiling South Africa’s achievements and progress towards NDP Vision 2030.
- Ensure Nation Brand alignment using various platforms, both domestically and internationally, to reach identified stakeholders through Brand South Africa’s Nation Brand Masterclass intervention.
- Strengthen stakeholder outreach and partnerships across government, the private sector and civil society.
- Broaden media engagements beyond traditional media houses to bloggers and other opinion makers, through the creative industries and better use of social media and public relations opportunities.

Discussion
Ms Van Damme asked why Brand SA existed especially since SA has embassies abroad that do the very same thing that the organisation does. She stated categorically that it should not be BSA’s role to play in the election space. She asked for clarity if it should be BSA’s role to clean up the noise made by other South African structures in the international space.

Ms Van Dyk asked for the statistics on tourism locally and internationally and how it compared with the previous year. She asked if the offices abroad have been doing any research that the Committee should be aware of. She asked how BSA managed communication on the following issues:
- The water crisis in Cape Town
- State capture, farm owners and land expropriation without compensation
- Are there any programmes planned to address these issues
- On digital terrestrial television (DTT), what role do you play to make local communities aware of digital migration project
- With internal communications, what issues are brought forward by staff members and has anyone resigned recently. What is the input from the floor of the staff members?

Responses
The Deputy Chairperson replied that BSA is the custodian of the SA brand and the embassies would support the brand but the organisation is the key driver. The strategies start internally to ensure that the pride is instilled locally. Other stakeholders are an extension of reinforcement of the SA brand.

BSA stays away from politics and it has no ambition to be involved in politics. However, there will be elections next year and therefore people will be raising issues much louder but it is not the organisation’s job to adjudicate on which issues are right or wrong. However, it was important to ensure that the noise would be managed to extent that it does not damage the South African brand.

Dr Jonty Tshipa, Director: Corporate Services, replied about the turnover rate. BSA had a low turnover rate during the quarter, it only lost one person. The largest number of employees that resigned was in Q4 last year, when BSA lost two people. The organisation has already started interviewing for those positions. Internal studies are conducted to ascertain the reasons for people were leaving the organisation, and information obtained from those surveys is then utilised to come up with best policies to ensure that the organisation retains its employees. However, it is important for Members to note that people leave for various reasons.

BSA works with the embassies and now it has created a discussion document where it interrogates the existence of those offices to see how best those offices can be optimised or shut down. That will be presented when the board has approved it. He could not comment further because the board has not yet seen it.

Ms Mimi Mabuza, Brand SA General Manager: Stakeholder Relations, said BSA has not yet done a survey on right-wing elements. When a planning is conducted it looks at information that is available which is used as part of the environmental analysis. When it comes to corruption, we do track information and undertake an analysis of the reports that are already available and how SA is perceived internationally.

On tourism, we do not do statistics but Statistics South Africa released statistics recently and it showed an increase in comparison to the previous year.
 
On the water crisis, BSA liaised with the province and the city around the messaging that was developed, but it did not conduct any campaigns because there were campaigns already underway. BSA sent the message of what the city was trying to do in addressing the challenge. This message was taken beyond Cape Town.

On state capture, the response was around communication to international markets about the importance of allowing due processes to follow and assuring that the relevant stakeholders were attending to the problems. BSA did not defend any position, it remained neutral.

On farm murders, there has not yet been a specific campaign on this but if there is negativity, BSA tries to reinforce and encourage citizens on their role and what they can do in that space to mitigate the issue.

On land expropriation without compensation, it is currently handled by other departments, but BSA understands that there is a process at hand and that a parliamentary process that is underway, so it is best to wait for that process to unfold. Thus, there is no specific message that has been formulated in that space.

BSA could consider looking into contributing towards the DTT project. In response to a question, she noted that BSA travel expenditure has been reduced by 34% in comparison to the previous financial year.

Films and Publication Board on its 2018/19 Annual Performance Plan
Mr Sandile Nene, FPB Acting Chief Executive Officer, commenced with an update on the concerns raised by the Committee. The actions taken to mitigate them were:
- Senior management resignations and suspensions – recruitment was underway for all EXCO positions;
- Employment equity quota for people with disabilities – five people with disabilities were recruited in October and the target now exceeded the national target of 2%);
- Intergovernmental collaboration – SAPS raids were done, school cyber safety outreach activities were done, there were public consultations on classification guidelines;
- Lack of visibility in communities – FPB had collaborated with civil society organisations in rolling out activities.

Ms Nthabiseng May, FPB Acting Chief Operating Officer, spoke about concerns raised by FPB staff to the Committee during its 2017 oversight visit, and management response to those:
- Benchmarking of salaries with other DoC entities – a report was tabled at Council on the benchmark and public sector comparative analysis, but financial resources to fund the change in salaries was lacking (60% of the budget pays salaries). Council will soon engage with the Minister;
- Job grading – this would be resolved by undertaking OD review and re-grading exercise, and the employees and labour union have been consulted in an OD exercise. The union requested all bargaining unit jobs graded and this impacted on the roll out of the project;
- Upskilling of existing employees – 27 employees were supported financially in 2018 academic year, and R512 432 of funding has been invested into staff education assistance in 2018;
- Lack of promotion opportunities – ongoing implementation of succession planning was underway;
- Salary overpayments affecting 13 staff members who were erroneously paid for 3 to 16 months, and there was a delay in addressing the problem. Now the organisation is confronted by a low staff morale.
- Salaries not paid on time – salary run for February 2017 bounced due to a technical problem on the side of the bank but it was addressed

Mr Vuledzani Matidza, FPB Acting Chief Financial Officer, said that the Board managed to resolve all the findings raised by the Auditor General in the 2016/17 audit. She noted that one of the issues was the APP targets were not measurable and were not based on SMART principles, and the targets were thus reviewed. The second issue was based on performance indicators – the targets that did not have a performance indicator now do. The third issue was based on classification around consequence management, particularly on theft and loss of assets. The committee dealing with those matters was not functional and a report was not provided to the committee. Currently, management has a report of all the incidents. The report will be furnished to the Committee to discuss the matters further. The fourth finding was about an outdated policy; the policy has been updated and it was approved on 22 March.

On the MTEF budget on Strategic Outcome 1, the board plans to implement a content regulation framework in the industry compliance programme that ensures all classifiable material is appropriately labelled and classified. This framework will guide the board’s planned 2310 online compliance inspections and 690 internet service provider inspections over the medium term and its initiatives geared towards ensuring at least 75% compliance through the value chain. Spending on these activities is set to increase by 8.3% over the MTEF period from R10.9 million in 2018/19 to R11.8 million in 2020/21.

On Strategic Outcome 2, as part of the roll out of direct awareness programmes over the medium term, the board plans to train 1 800 educators and 3000 parents and learners across the country on cyber safety. Spending on these activities is set to increase by 3.2% over the MTEF period from R5.9 million in 2018/19 to R6.2 million in 2020/21.

On the MTEF budget on Strategic Outcomes 3, 4 and 5, spending on compensation of employees increases from R47.5 million in 2017/18 to R57.8 million in 2020/21 at an average annual rate of 6.6%.

Another priority is adopting and applying advanced ICT technologies to automate some of its core functions required for the effective regulation of the online content distribution market. Spending on ICT infrastructure is set to increase by 11.2% over the medium term. Lastly, the FPB has created longstanding partnerships with stakeholders from the various sectors over the years and the programme will also focus on maintaining these partnerships. The FPB has a stakeholder engagement plan to ensure that the organisation receives value from partnerships – spending amounts to R6.6 million over the MTEF period.

Discussion
Ms Van Dyk pointed to page 19, and asked about why the rates were going to be enforced in four regions instead of all provinces. She asked for more information on how ICASA was going to conduct the partnerships with the schools. How do you measure the reach of outreaches and public awareness? On page 39, it is outlined that seven stakeholders were going to be engaged, so which stakeholders were engaged and does the FPB visit those stakeholders or do they come to SA?

Ms Van Damme noted that there were repayment arrangements with staff members that were over-paid, and asked how the process was conducted and whether it was investigated and deduced how it had occurred. Secondly, on online inspections – how does FPB identify the websites and which websites were inspected?

Had FPB engaged with Facebook SA about Cambridge Analytica and how Facebook intended to protect personal data especially now that SA would be going into elections? What plans are set up to address fake news and propaganda?

Mr Xaba referred to slide 19 and asked which items would be indicative of hotspot areas. FPB said seven international stakeholders will be engaged – where will these stakeholders be engaged and how?

Responses
Mr Nene replied that the four provinces emanated from the recommendations of the AG because the APP was not SMART, so we started correcting those mistakes so the current APP is aligned to the previous APP SMART targets. The last two quarters of the previous financial year is when we started cleansing the SMART targets.

On the overpayments, it was unfortunate that it occurred and it caused commotion amongst staff members. After the matter was investigated it was discovered that it was a systems error – the system was not informing Human Resources when it made deductions on medical aid and other related employees expenses, it was concurrently paying the medical aid to the service providers and employees.

There was a skills mismatch in the Human Resources function so the Board decided to outsource the salary payments function and the rectification of the overpayments.

There were two different figures presented by HR and employees, but the HR component is not trusted, so the Board was relying on employees to come forward. It was not an act of corruption but a systems error, and SARS has come on board to assist the organisation because some employees automatically jumped into a higher tax bracket. He assured Members that this did not take away the consequence management part of it because the people who were supposed to capture the information did not do so.

There are hotspots for movies coming from abroad that have not yet been classified; we work with law enforcement agencies to identify them and ensure that the laws are adhered to.

FPB is divided into three regions, Cape Town, Durban and Gauteng – compliance officers travel across the country to do the work. When pirated items are found they are destroyed but before that FPB would do a monetary assessment value to ascertain how much those items would cost the economy. There is a lot of public education and awareness that needs to take place because when SAPS seizes these items from street vendors, the public complains.

Ms Khensani Khoza, FPB Acting Chief Information Officer, replied about the four regions, saying each region several provinces to manage. In essence, all nine provinces are covered. The annual trends indicate that FPB registers about 6000 titles, but it could not release classification decisions within the eight days turn-around time due to financial constraints.

On the online space, there is content that has now migrated into retail stores, and that platform is now regulated. We have a team of monitors that go into that space to ensure that they are registered with the FPB and adhering to the regulations.

On the parents, educators and learner engagement, there is a very strict protocol on what can be done in that space. We have managed to partner with private schools because they are flexible, and we have engaged the Department of Education to formalise our relationship.

On training and development, it relates to the development of individuals on a personal level. On international travel, this related to study tours and hosting other countries into SA.

The meeting was adjourned.